Finding A Healthy Church: A Response To Sheila Wray Gregoire And Beth Allison Barr
I have avoided addressing the teachings and books put forth by Sheila Wray Gregoire because, frankly, she exhausts me despite her seemingly sincere desire to help women. She reminds me of people I have known who will win arguments by being like a clanging cymbal in the room. Eventually, most people just walk away from the argument and let that kind of person “win.” In addition, she has a group of vicious followers who won’t engage in genuine conversations. Read a comment thread, and you’ll see scores of women ruthlessly and ceaselessly descend on any critic. I want no part of that. But then… She posted a blog and podcast episode with guest, Beth Allison Barr, about finding a healthy church, and the advise they gave was lacking…perhaps damaging. So, let’s do this.
Who Am I Talking About?
Both of these women are professing Christian authors who are not too shy to remind everyone that they are experts in their field. (More on that later.) Most notable for today’s discussion, they are egalitarians who have had negative church experiences which have strongly shaped how they view the Church and the men in it. Finding a healthy church and rejecting what they call “toxic teachings” is a significant part of their work, and I commend them for seeking to help Christians find safe, biblical churches. However, I don’t think they’re actually doing that.
Let’s briefly meet the ladies.
Sheila Wray Gregoire
Gregoire is a Canadian blogger, author, speaker, and podcaster. She used to call her ministry To Love, Honor, and Vacuum (named after a book she wrote), but her focus changed in the last several years which made her original blog title outdated and off mission. She now calls it Bare Marriage.
I have loosely followed Gregoire for about ten years. She wrote about marriage, but the topic she frequently addressed that garnered attention was sex. Gregoire was willing to speak frankly about making sexual intimacy a mutually enjoyable experience in a marriage. She tackled topics that make most people blush, and she was able to do it in a way that made her reader or listener feel encouraged and comfortable.
After years of this work, Gregoire had heard countless stories from women about sexual abuse, rape, spiritual abuse, and a number of other traumatic events that hurt women. Not just any women. Sisters in the Lord. Suddenly, at least to me, she was laser focused on how women were being harmed in the Church and by whom.
Gregoire is currently on the warpath. Through her blog, podcast, and books she is trying to recruit women to help her discredit any conservative, complementarian author or pastor who won’t bow the knee to her vision of healthy biblical teaching concerning sex and gender roles. In most of the content I have read from her blog and books, Gregoire sounds as if she has assumed the worst possible motivations for the people she calls out, and she displays very little understanding of their position. She comes across as a woman who has had enough.
I believe she thinks she is offering real help to women in the Church, but I think she is convincing women that they are victims when they are not. (That is not to say that no women are victims.) And the resources and responses she offers women are unbiblical, and thus, ultimately unhelpful to Christian women. The message she gives screams Christian feminism.
Beth Allison Barr
Barr is a professor at Baylor University where she teaches history. Her areas of focus are medieval and early modern England, women’s history, and Church history. Her Baylor webpage says, “She is interested in how the advent of Protestantism affected women in Christianity as well as how and why medieval perceptions of women in religious literature both changed and stayed the same across the Reformation era. More recently, her research has expanded to include modern evangelicalism (especially Baptists), but her approach is always rooted in the medieval world.” It’s no surprise, given those areas of interest, that she calls herself an activist. She’s entrenched herself in what is essentially “Christian women’s studies” with a medieval focus.
Baylor University: In Case You Didn’t Know
I’d like to make a quick note about Baylor University. I mistakenly thought that Baylor was a reputable Christian University. I mean, didn’t Joanna Gaines go there?
As it turns out, Baylor University is a hot mess of conflicting beliefs. The school advertises a commitment to Christianity and boasts of its Chapel tradition. Meanwhile, Baylor also highlights the “Baylor family” demographics. The list of faith traditions is extensive, but it includes Atheism, Baptist, Buddhist, Catholicism, Full Gospel, Islam, Jehovah’s Witness, Lutheranism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Unitarianism. So, if being a professor is supposed to offer some clout in any serious Christian circles, then it fails miserably. Baylor may be a great place to mingle multiple beliefs and ideas in one place, but it is certainly not an environment where biblical Christianity is meant to thrive.
The Books With Which They’ll Be Finding A Healthy Church
As I mentioned earlier, both Gregoire and Barr are published authors. I won’t cover everything they have written, but there are three significant books in reference to today’s conversation.
The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You’ve Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended
This book was written by Sheila Wray Gregoire (and her writing partners) and released in 2021. The book is based on a survey of approximately 20,000 women, and Gregoire uses the responses from those women to identify and speak against bad teachings about sex in the Church. Despite the fact that I wouldn’t recommend this book, I do agree with some of the things she says about what the Church teaches men and women about sexual intimacy. In fact, I wrote about some of those bad teachings myself. Gregoire, though, lays the blame at the feet of men in leadership positions in churches and Christian authors while alleviating women of any personal responsibility to educate themselves.
The Great Sex Rescue is highly rated by reader reviews, but I would caution you to pay attention to who is reviewing her book. Her own following, perhaps? Always expect a standing ovation when you preach to the choir.
The most common criticisms/accusations are:
1. The respondents were like-minded fans with a bent toward agreeing with the premise.
2. Gregoire was unclear about her methodology, making reproducing the study a near impossibility.
3. There was an overreliance on testimonials.
4. The graphs were vague and sophomoric, and the statistics were not “rigorous.”
5. The foundation was the study, and the Bible was essentially sidelined.
I can’t tell you that all these criticisms are accurate, but I can tell you they are the most frequent ones. Also, I can say from my experience that Gregoire and her followers get irate when someone brings these up.
She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up
This book was also written by Sheila Wray Gregoire (and her team), and it was released in 2023. She Deserves Better was written based on the findings of her research with over 7,000 women and is meant to teach women and girls how to recognize and fight against toxic sexual teachings.
The reviews, again, are overwhelmingly positive, and they are also primarily from apparent feminists who are validated by the book. The criticisms are similar to those for The Great Sex Rescue. My biggest critique is summed up well in blurb on Amazon. The book is advertised to as “biblically informed.” What does that mean? Well, it means the authors know the Bible exists, but it will not be the basis of any conclusions in the research. An author can say “biblically informed” to receive a little recognition from the Christian community, but the Bible will not be the guide. As many critical reviews state, this is a book based on opinion and a survey.
Sheila Wray Gregoire’s Methodology
Gregoire’s studies have been questioned quite a bit, and she finally addressed the issue directly. She said her team used snowball sampling for their study. Summed up quickly, this method begins with the researchers asking for identified individuals to participate. Following that, the participants recruit their acquaintances to participate, and so on. Participation then buildings like a snowball rolling down a hill.
The main advantage of snowball sampling is that it can reach hidden populations through the participants’ social connections. Are women in evangelical churches really a hidden population, though?
The two biggest disadvantages, as I see it, is that snowball sampling is not random. The respondents are, due to the nature of the method, going to have connections to one another. With that in mind, the other big disadvantage is community bias. If I am an egalitarian feminist, who is my community? Who will I ask to participate in the study? Think about that for a minute.
The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth
This book was written by Beth Allison Barr and published in 2021. Like the two other books I discussed, the reviews are generally positive. Women cheer for its affirming message and express relief to have read that their feelings about the Bible have been confirmed.
The most thorough and popular critical review is by Kevin DeYoung. It’s a very long review, so I’d carve out some time and grab a coffee if you plan to read it. Of everything he wrote in his review, the most notable point DeYoung made was that Barr is dissatisfied with women being called to secondary roles. Yes, this sounds like a stereotypical feminist thought, but it also reveals something more about Barr.
Barr’s underlying understanding of the Christian faith is lacking. Her focus on primary and secondary roles is status-seeking and me-focused. No role is more or less important among believers. My husband, the pastor of our church, is just as likely to move furniture, clean the bathrooms, and do dishes after a potluck (we’re Baptists…) as anyone else. His pastoral role sets him apart in terms of his responsibility to the Church, but he is no more important than the member who quietly repairs the parking lot or mops the floors.
What we think is so important now may not be so important to God. Is not an obsession with being first, respected, seen, or in charge just a worldly value?
“So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (emphasis mine)
Matthew 20:16
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Galatians 3:28
“For God shows no partiality.”
Romans 2:11 (ESV)
Common Criticism
Some criticisms I have seen are:
1. Barr seems to reject portions of the Bible she dislikes and holds man’s ways above the Word.
2. She has a major beef with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), and it shows.
3. Barr claims the men who put together the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible intentionally hid truths about women and their roles. She says this despite the fact that she is not privy to their conversations, and she is not a theologian.
4. She teaches that the Reformation led to the Patriarchy that took away the women’s spiritual authority which was seen in the medieval Church.
What Does This Have To Do With Finding A Healthy Church?
Nothing! Yet everything… Now you know who these two women are, and you should have a grasp on their worldview. These ladies are popular and impacting many women’s theology and understanding of how the Church works. Not to mention, they are perpetuating hateful rhetoric about men in the Church. Knowing what you know now, we can examine the blog and podcast these two ladies created to help women find a healthy church.
Why Should I Be Finding A Healthy Church?: Toxic Teaching
Gregoire’s blog and podcast featuring Beth Allison Barr repeatedly referenced “toxic” teachings. I’m all about exposing toxic teachings, false teaching, dangerous leaders, etc., but I’m also a fan of clearly defined terms. For two women who insist on having done rigorous study and scientific research, they certainly remain vague. In academia, professionals generally give detailed explanations of technical terms and measurements. In other words, they provide “operational definitions.”
If they believe we should be finding healthy churches without toxic teaching, then they out to clarify what makes a teaching toxic. The underlying message in nearly everything they each write (and said on this podcast) is that complementarianism is the toxic trait from which we should flee in a church. Neither woman clarified her understanding of the term in the blog or podcast. Thankfully, I was able to find their definitions elsewhere.
Sheila Wray Gregoire
I found Gregoire’s definition of complementarianism in the comment section of her post about identifying a legalistic church. Allow me to share the direct quote below.
“Egalatarians believe that God made men and women differently, and that we need each other, and that together, we display the image of God. Both sexes are necessary for this. And thus, one sex is not more important than the other. They also believe that couples are to serve God together and work towards living out God’s will. One person does not have leadership over another.
Complementarians believe that men and women are in a hierarchical relationship, where men lead and make decisions and women follow. The way that you glorify God together is by allowing the man to lead.
Or, to put it another way, egalatarians believe you should try to seek God’s will together. Complementarians believe that the way to find God’s will is through the husband’s will, because that is his special purpose and place in the family.”
Sheila Wray Gregoire, April 4, 2018
Do you see what she’s done here? This is not the definition of complementarianism. She has pitted egalitarianism and complementarianism against each other. One is painted as all good, and the other is described in only negative terms. Gregoire is taking a faulty understanding of complementarianism and using it to vilify a large subset of Christians and, well, the Bible itself.
What Is Complementarianism?
Boiled down to the essentials, complementarians believe men and women were created by God in His image (Genesis 1:26), yet he also created them to complement, or complete, each other. Genesis 2:18 explains that woman was made to help man. Sorry if that steps on some toes, but take it up with God not me.
Complementarians look to Ephesians 5:21-33 for instructions on how the home should run. This looks like the husband being the spiritual leader. He will also sacrificially love his wife. Meanwhile, his wife will submit to her husband. This does not mean she is subjugated, abused, or treated as a doormat with no voice of her own. Women do not have to allow their husbands to sin against them.
I like John Piper’s definition of submission. He says it is the “calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership, and so help to carry it through according to her gifts.”
Got Questions sums up the heart behind complementarianism better than I could. It says, “Men and women are equally valued in God’s sight and in His plan. Complementarianism seeks to preserve the biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles while valuing the quality and importance of both genders. The result of true complementarianism is honor to Christ and harmony in the church and in the home.”
Will there be men, leaders, and churches who abuse complementarianism? Undoubtedly. But man’s potential sin shouldn’t lead us to reject God’s clear instructions. We need to stop calling out the Bible when people sin and use the Bible to call out the sin.
Beth Allison Barr
In her book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood, Barr uses the terms “biblical womanhood,” “complementarianism”, and “Patriarchy” interchangeably. And they are all bad words by her measure. On the second page of her book, she says what she believed biblical womanhood means. “God designed women primarily to be submissive wives, virtuous mothers, and joyful homemakers. God designed men to lead in the home as husbands and fathers, as well as in church as pastors, elders, and deacons.”
Barr wanted to be spiritual leader and was not satisfied with her role in her church. (She explains the events that led to her leaving her church and embracing egalitarianism in the podcast.) I think she had a misunderstanding concerning a woman’s role. Barr saw her position as mother and wife as less significant than the responsibilities some men have. Apparently, she saw the blessing of motherhood and being a wife as subjugation.
In addition, somehow being a college professor was not enough fulfillment for her. Certainly, others view her as a leader in her field and well-educated. However, Barr seems to have wanted that in the spiritual realm, as well.
Who Is Qualified To Help When You Are Finding A Healthy Church?
I’m not a huge proponent of sending boys off to seminary. Although it was difficult, I think my husband having a secure way to earn an income while volunteering in church for years before entering seminary made him much more equipped to pastor when he graduated than the inexperienced boys with no marketable skills holding a seminary degree in their hands. At the same time, Bible training is a must. Gregoire and Barr seem less convinced.
Barr thinks her husband’s social work degree is what made him a good youth pastor. As a former social worker, I can say that my social work education is wildly unbiblical and completely useless in a Christian setting. So, agree to disagree, I guess?
Both women have received questions regarding their qualifications when they discuss theological issues. I don’t think you need a Bible degree to be qualified to discuss theology, but you better back what you say with Scripture. You had better have done your research. Gregoire and Barr, though, see their secular experiences and degrees in other subjects as qualifications. I don’t know if Barr understands this, but being a historian does not mean she is also a theologian.
Barr is so convinced of her own superior qualifications that she insinuated on the podcast that pastors are only qualified to teach the gospel. If they want to offer counsel, then they better be board certified, too, because these women don’t want biblical counseling near any women in the Church. (Are they afraid they might hear 1 Timothy 2:11-12?)
Frankly, ladies like Gregoire and Barr have disqualified themselves to speak on biblical matters, not by being women, but by elevating worldly wisdom above His Holy Word.
Finally, Finding A Healthy Church
What a wild ride! But we’ve finally arrived. You know who these women are, what they believe about toxicity in the Church, and who they see as qualified teachers in the Church. So, let’s look at their advice for finding a healthy church.
1. Visit other churches of various denominations with no intent to stay.
The ladies think believers need to see what kind of other churches might be out there for them in order to avoid landing in a similarly toxic church. They believe this exposure will help teach you about your options and what healthy can look like. The ladies suggested visiting churches you have no intention of joining or serving. As a pastor’s wife, can I tell you just how much we love when people come to our church for self-serving purposes and have already decided they would never attend? (Note sarcasm)
It’s all right to visit churches, to be unsure about where you want to go, and to visit on occasion, but this approach is markedly self-centered. Why go at all if you know it’s wrong for you? For instance, as an Independent Baptist I would never attend a Full Gospel church. I know my beliefs don’t align with theirs, so why waste my time and theirs?
Instead, think through what you believe about God and the Bible, and then visit churches that seem to line up with those beliefs. Finding a healthy church is a serious task that should be treated as such. Don’t just throw spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Visit churches thoughtfully.
2. Poke around the website.
Agreed. The website is where you’ll find the statement of beliefs, information about staff, church history, and whatnot. However, this is not the kind of information you’re encouraged to look for on Gregoire’s blog.
She suggests you look for “harmful” book suggestions or a hint of purity culture as possible red flags. “What books?” you might ask. A few examples of books that Gregoire speaks out against include Love and Respect, Every Man’s Battle, And the Bride Wore White, and The Excellent Wife. If the book is complementarian, you can safely assume she wants it removed from shelves.
While you look at a church’s website, she also wants you to look for some good signs. If the church has counseling, check to see if the counselors are licensed. Biblical counseling is a no-go. And of course, look for female staff. Are they pastors or “just” administrative workers? No women in pastoral leadership, according to Gregoire and Barr, is problematic and indicates a potentially toxic church. It’s funny, because it indicates a healthy church which bases its leadership on a biblical model, in my opinion.
3. Do a Google search for the church and denomination.
Well, I mean, yes! I Google everything. We’d never eat in my home if we didn’t have search engines. Any other moms with me on this one?
If I were looking up a church online, I’d look for the website, its social media presence, and reviews people may have left. The blog recommends more specific Google searches than what I would do. The post identifies important search terms such as, “abuse,” “police,” and “former member.” I can see why someone might want to see if the church has had any abuse accusations or arrests in the past, but looking up former members is dangerously biased. People who leave a church with no ill will are not going to be on the Internet discussing that church. On the other hand, someone who leaves with a chip on her shoulder is much more likely to have bad things to say and post those thoughts online. It’s better to form your opinion without other people’s personal history informing your experience.
If I looked up a denomination, I’d focus on what beliefs they hold. If they reject things like the resurrection, deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc., then I would know the denomination is not for me. Gregoire’s blog post suggest a different route with terms like, “abuse scandals,” “annual meeting,” and “annual convention.” Does any of that ring a bell? Yeah…that’s a cue to stay away from the SBC. I’m telling you; these ladies really don’t like Baptists.
4. Maybe just take a break or start your own church.
Gregoire and Barr both recognize the importance of church, but they suggested it might be time to take a break from church. Depending on what happened at your previous church, I can’t argue against that. It might be necessary. But I’d keep it very short.
Nevertheless, I’m not willing to recommend that people go about starting churches because they can’t find one they like. We have all heard of the echo chamber by now. Surrounding yourself with your friends who think the same as you and don’t have any Bible education may lead to its own form of toxicity and unbiblical teaching. Not to mention, there is a complete lack of oversight and accountability in those scenarios. Be cautious before taking that step.
How To Actually Find A Healthy Church
Finding a healthy church is extremely important, and there truly are plenty of churches that teach lies and even harmful things. Nonetheless, starting your church search with “toxic” and “abuse” in your mind is not necessarily going to lead you to what every Christian needs. A Bible-preaching church.
Look for a church that faithfully teaches from the Bible every week. Observe how the members treat you and each other. Talk to the pastor and ask him for his testimony. Find out how they engage the community. Ask if they support missions. Does the church have a good reputation in the community? And remember, teaching that men and women have been designed with unique gifts and skills is not toxic or abusive. It’s just what the Bible says.
Final Thought
I hope that you take this as a warning about who you listen to and which teachers you follow. Sheila Wray Gregoire and Beth Allison Barr are educated women who appear to genuinely want to help others. They are prime examples of sincere people being sincerely wrong.
Ladies, we are bombarded with women who can speak well, have impressive degrees, ooze confidence, and sound like they know what they are talking about. When you encounter someone new, take a step back and look into what she actually believes. It might mean you need to wait a few days to begin reading a book from a new author to figure out where she’s coming from, but it’s absolutely worth it.
What do you think of Gregoire and Barr? Are they sound teachers, radical feminists, or something else entirely?
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Gavin L
Very nice post. I like your reasoning. I like a lot of things Gregoire says and I think she does have an important message, but I get icky vibes from her. I don’t see her calling people out in a spirit of gentleness way or speaking the “truth” in love. Blatant sin sure but I think you put it well that she is basically viewing every opposing viewpoint as evil and malicious. Biggest read flag to me was not basing everything off the Bible which is truth always, instead relying on secular data. Secular data is true, but it will always prove the Bible, always.
Blatantly misinterpreting Ephesians 5:23 is confusing to me. It literally says Kephalé: (a) the head, (b) met: a corner stone, uniting two walls; head, ruler, lord… κεφαλή, κεφαλῆς, ἡ, the Sept. for רֹאשׁ; the head, both of men: Matthew 5:36; Mark 6:24; Luke 7:38, 44 (Rec.),46; John 13:9; Acts 18:18; 1 Corinthians 11:4; Revelation 1:14; Revelation 4:4, and often; and of animals: Revelation 9:7, 17, 19, etc.; on the phrases κλίνειν τήν κεφαλήν, ἐπαίρειν τήν κεφαλήν, see κλίνω, 1 and ἐπαίρω; on the saying in Romans 12:20, see under ἄνθραξ. Since the loss of the head destroys the life, κεφαλή is used in phrases relating to capital and extreme punishments: so in τό αἷμα ὑμῶν ἐπί τήν κεφαλήν ὑμῶν (see αἷμα, 2 a., p. 15{b}), Acts 18:6, and similar phrases in classical Greek; see Passow, under the word, p. 1717{a}; Pape under the word, 3; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I. 3 and 4). Metaphorically, anything supreme, chief, prominent; of persons, master, lord: τίνος, of a husband in relation to his wife, 1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23; of Christ, the lord of the husband, 1 Corinthians 11:3 (cf. Buttmann, 124f (109)); of the church, Ephesians 4:15; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 2:19 (cf. Buttmann, § 143, 4 c.); τοῦ σώματος τῆς ἐκκλησίας, Colossians 1:18; πάσης ἀρχῆς καί ἐξουσίας, Colossians 2:10; so Judges 11:11; 2 Samuel 22:44, and in Byzantine writings of things: κεφαλῆς γωνίας, the corner-stone, see γωνία, a. ((From Homer down.))
I feel that’s clear. A man should have leadership, not lordship. Sacrificially leading as Christ did, but still being the spiritual authority/leader. Mutually submitting with his wife and not being tyrannical so that your prayers are not hindered (God won’t listen to you if you don’t listen to her. I don’t know why it seems like gregoire hates the idea of this which is complementary but tries to call it egalitarian.
Julie
Good thoughts. I agree that she has some great things to say, especially as these super patriarchal (and unbiblically so) men are popping up all over social media telling women to study the theology of sourdough. (True story.) But, yes, she takes good ideas and runs to left field with them. It’s too bad.
Anon
It’s me again, haha, coming back to this post as I’ve seen more of my friends sharing Sheila’s content lately.
What bugs me most is when Sheila points out a bad teaching or teacher, I agree with her more often than not. But she takes her disagreement so far I end up defending the teaching/teacher. It’s like my liberal friends who were so far down the Trump Derangement Syndrome road that their disagreements were more outlandish than whatever he’d said. Which is no small feat, by the way.
Example: I agree with almost all of Sheila’s points against Love & Respect and Emerson Eggerichs. But my criticisms end with “I think Eggerichs is wrong about many things and I don’t recommend L&R.” When it comes to Sheila and her minions, I have to argue about how I don’t think just having L&R in the library makes a church toxic and no, you should not call for a CPS investigation on the pastor of this church (I wish I were making that last part up) and while I see plenty of evidence that Eggerichs is a bad husband, that doesn’t make him an abuser, a distinction that seems to vex many of Bare Marriage’s devotees. I just think Eggerichs is wrong and that’s all the reason I need to not use his materials. But the BM crowd isn’t happy unless you toe their line.
I do believe a lot of women who latch on to Sheila have experienced genuine mistreatment and even abuse in their marriages and have not found support in the Christian community. They see Sheila as their lone advocate. Her zeal is understandable, even admirable, but misplaced. She’s a good example of the quote about zeal without truth being like a sword wielded by a madman.
Julie
Excellent observations!
Does
I believe this post MISREPRESENTED both Sheila Wray Gregoire as well as Beth Allison Bar in order to further complimentarianism . Everyone says they are Biblical. In all honesty the Bible support’s both complimentarianism And Egalitarianism. In conservative circles people are blind to accept Only their own view
Julie
Complementarianism and egalitarianism can’t both be supported in the Bible. To be one is to not be the other. I think the issue is often that egalitarians teach complementarianism as a “sit down and shut up, ladies” worldview. If that’s what the alternative is to female pastors and women spiritually leading men in the church, then who would want to be complementarian?
The only thing I’m trying to further is biblical understanding and godly obedience. And, no, I didn’t misrepresent these ladies. I simply shared easily verifiable information about them. Maybe seeing it all laid out makes it more obvious that they should be avoided?
God bless!
Anon
It’s a huge red flag for me when ministries and speakers spend more time disparaging other Christians than they do proclaiming the Word of God. Another red flag is when these people seem friendlier with the world than they are with their fellow believers. Bare Marriage is waving both of those high and proud.
I found Bare Marriage/To Love Honor and Vacuum a few years ago when my marriage was not going well. Sheila was one of the few Christian resources that gave actionable strategies and didn’t just quote Ephesians 5 at me (not that I am against quoting Ephesians 5). I never agreed with her egalitarian bent but she had a lot of good ideas that marriage ministries frequently overlook.
Since TGSR became a big hit, Bare Marriage has really become The Gospel According to Sheila’s Statistics. She’s become very belligerent and hides behind her numbers whenever questions come up. Really, she has become a lot like the authors and speakers she calls out. Her ministry is now about herself and not the Bible.
I also found Sheila’s recent work started leading me to adopt a self-centered attitude toward my marriage and to view my husband in a negative light. One of her podcasts got us into a huge fight that lasted two days. I don’t hold Sheila responsible for that, though I wonder how she’d respond if I measured her with the yardstick she uses to measure others. That fight was a wake-up call for me and I no longer follow or recommend Bare Marriage. If I do share something I find helpful, I do so with many caveats.
As for me and my husband, I’m pleased to report we are not great, but much better. Some of this is thanks to Sheila Wray Gregoire. However, if I’d continued listening to Sheila’s gospel, we’d be in a terrible place. I wonder how many marriages have followed her advice and ended up in a terrible place they could have avoided.
Julie
This is absolutely fantastic! It reminds me of the kind of criticism that gets attacked on Bare Marriage’s site and FB page. It feels like a little cult of “fem-nazis” who can’t handle any level of pushback. And that’s tiresome. Meanwhile, women are negatively impacted by her ministry daily. Just don’t say so, I guess.
I’m glad to hear your marriage is improved, and I think it’s wonderful you had the discernment to see the red flags.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience. God bless!
PQ
I would share ALL Christian marriage advice with many caveats. Even from this blog.
AJ
Sheila is a “man hater”. I think this can be attributed to a poor relationship with her father.
Anon
That was a big thing that started me distancing myself from Bare Marriage (I am the anon from above). I started feeling like I could get the same advice and attitudes from secular resources, and they at least would be honest that they’re anti-male and don’t believe the Bible.
Sheila’s made it pretty clear that she aligns much more with the world’s values than the Bible’s, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see her ministry forsake the Word altogether somewhere down the line. It’s how progressive Christians tend to go.
Julie
I hope you’re wrong, but I think you are probably correct about the trajectory of her ministry. We just need to keep her in prayer. By the grace of God she could come back to the Word of God.
K
Perhaps consider having a face to face conversation with Sheila-to bring clarity to your concerns-before making judgments and assessments of her, her colleagues and her work.
Julie
I assume you’re thinking of Matthew 18. Maybe you’re not, but that is often where people go when someone criticizes another on a public forum. Matthew 18 applies to a local church context. A public figure who is teaching wrongly does not need a personal conversation with the individual before she can share her concerns and warnings online. This is more of a “mark and avoid” thing.
What clarity do I need? Sheila is very clear in her beliefs and opinions.
Try Reading Your Bible Again
You people exhaust me.
Julie
If you mean me, sorry about that. I’m just a singular person, though, so I didn’t think I could exhaust someone all by myself. But if you mean that false teachers exhaust you, then I’m with you. 🙂
PQ
I don’t believe Sheila is a false teacher.
Sophie
Thank you for taking the time to write this article as it articulated and named the reasons why I have struggled with Sheila G.’s literature and ‘teachings.’ It seemed to me that she correctly highlighted a potential problem within certain sectors of the conservative church and began a (loud) conversation about it which arguably needed to take place within the church arena. However, her approach is brash and graphic and her solution is hermeneutically distorted. Her exposure of the imbalanced view presented in some best selling marriage books which I had previously read, did prompt me to re-think the issue in a helpfully critical way. When I returned to the Scripture to study more about marriage, God’s plan and purpose for the husband and wife relationship, selflessness, ‘dying daily’, mutual honor and love, truly reflecting and representing God’s heart in our approach to all our relationships etc, I came away with a different conclusion than Sheila and Co.
Julie
I think this is wonderfully said! Sheila definitely brought up some needed conversations, but she seems to have left behind simple Bible interpretation for worldly wisdom. It’s too bad.
Brandy
I find Sheila repulsive and her daughter is just as bad if not worse. There’s a really weird personality trait that I can’t put my finger on. Is it the “pick me” syndrome? Seriously. Is it the weird awkward kid that finally gets some sort of voice and can’t control themselves? They marginalize themselves by their behavior. They hurt women who are already hurt giving them some sort of source of their hurt and providing them a community to dwell on those hurts without a path to healing. They repost old posts to keep the audience stirred up. They look for the next bait to get the bitterness rooted even further in the group. It’s really a scheme of the devil and they can’t even see it. They are so entrenched in the mess and getting the praise of their audience, they are completely blinded how Satan is using them. Sheila says she feels like and “ugly duckling” when she is marginalized and not invited to events and it baits the audience to feel even more for her and champion the cause. She compares herself to Martin Luther starting a revolution and basically anything goes to accomplish the end, whatever that is. There is an unhealthy spirit that is obvious to anyone who watches her interact in videos and then to see how she stirs her audience up is just plain evil. It’s sad to see “Christians” act like the world. None of this is said to be mean. It’s a serious thing and for the life of me I just can’t figure out it. The more I watch or read, the more confounded I am. Sad.
Julie
The thing that stands out to me is Sheila’s apparent disbelief whenever someone doesn’t agree with her and cheer for her. Why would anyone expect no pushback when they blog and have a podcast? She seems to really think believe she’s arrived…
I pray for her often, and I hope others do, too. I really do want the best for her, but it’s impossible to engage without getting attacked by her fans.
Cherie
Hi Julie, I really appreciate this post and your approach. What I am wondering though is, how do you suggest a Christian lady tackle the responsibility to “educate themselves”?
I ask this because I came across Sheila’s writing when I was trying to ‘self educate’ as I am currently ‘disorgasmic’ and found her about the only person who was open and very informative on the actual real details of sex and specifically the woman’s experience and how it should be. I definitely have felt uncomfortable with the undertones of her feministic leaning and ‘taring a lot of people with the one brush’, so to speak.
I thought I was fairly well informed about sex before I got married a year and half ago to my amazing godly husband (who is the son of an Independent Baptist Pastor where we are in Australia) however my mum had passed on to be with Jesus a couple of years before I started courting and so I didn’t have her to give me “the talk”. The older sister of my maid of honour bravely asked if I would like a talk as she had seen far too many conservative homeschooled Christian girls have unnecessary struggles such as UTIs on their honeymoon, etc. and wanted to be of help but she didn’t cover anything about understanding my body or female arousal as it was awkward enough with what we did cover. My dad told me some general things and some books I was loaned were of no help at all in this area so I simply had no idea at all.
I love my husband SOOOO much and praise God for our marriage (and now our 8mth old baby girl) but I have always felt like something is lacking in my experience in intimacy and only just started to ask questions and actually find some answers, but not from someone I want to endorse as a Bible believing woman!! 🙁 I would appreciate prayer! xx
Julie
I’ve been scratching my head for quite awhile about your question. The problem is that most biblically sound women won’t openly discuss sex, or heaven forbid, have an entire ministry about it. That’s where Sheila really benefits. She has very little competition in this area. In her earlier years, I think her content was helpful. The things she wrote about were usually not viewed through a woke lens. She just explained what women needed to feel good, safe, and free in the bedroom.
As for current resources, it’s hard to find one anyone will suggest wholeheartedly. Intended for Pleasure is pretty old, but it can get pretty specific… Sheet Music is also one I hear recommended a lot. Outside of Google searches, I think other women are the best resource. If the problem is experiencing pleasure, perhaps resources that are less Bible focused and more about the act. To be honest, most Christian books about sex in marriage spend way more time explaining what the Bible says about sex and too little time talking about how to have great sex.
You’re in my prayers. God bless!
Anon
Juli Slattery at authenticintimacy.com is a good resource, without all the woke garbage of Sheila Gregoire.
Julie
Thank you for the resource. 😃
janet
I’ve listened to several of her podcasts. While at times the “tone” can get very sarcastic I think that’s just a personality thing. I’ve found her quote scripture and I find it accurate. Now, is she always right, of course not, neither is the writer of the article, none of us are or we’d be the savior. I was impressed that she makes several pointed comments about NOT attacking the writer but critiquing the book, etc. I like her, I always knew the church teachings didn’t sit right in my soul (as Jill Briscoe once said, to which her husband replied “Go get em Jill”) and thanks to Sheila, now I know why. I’m spreading her information because every woman I know needs it. I don’t want my daughter’s and granddaughters taught that because they have a vagina they should sit down and be quiet. Hog wash. That’s not Jesus people.
Julie
Be careful not to overapply her teachings. Yes, some churches teach the Bible through a misogynistic lens. That’s obviously true, and we should push back against it. However, Sheila teaches as a knee-jerk reaction and ignores clear biblical teaching on the roles of men and women. She and her crew push feminism into the Church, and it’s poison.
Anon
This article made me feel seen. I discovered Sheila’s teachings late last year and they have been hugely helpful in addressing intimacy issues with my marriage. But then I discovered that in her podcast and blog, she has been on the warpath with the pastor of the church I attend, calling him out on comments or jokes he makes without context. She seems determined to misrepresent a guy who definitely isn’t perfect, but isn’t the monster she portrays him to be. And her followers are truly vicious. I once tried sharing some additional background to an out-of-context clip she shared on her social media, and her followers were like WOLVES, tearing me down for even attending this church. Needless to say, I deleted my comment and unfollowed. It’s truly a shame, because her resources are so great and beneficial. But her behavior online and the behavior she encourages in her followers is un-Christlike.
Julie
Your comment makes me feel seen, too. Her earlier work really helped me with some issues I brought into my marriage, but she went way off the rails.
I’m sorry you were attacked by her followers. My experience has been the same. Interestingly, there’s almost no disagreement in her comments any longer… 🤔
Thanks for sharing your experience. God bless!
Fiona
I don’t think she’s gone off the rails to be honest. Some of her early stuff from Love Honor and Vacuum could be quite harmful (which she has duly admitted). I’m glad she’s removed a lot of her early stuff from her archived material. I don’t believe everything she says and I think she uses the word ‘toxic’ far too often, but I’m glad she’s calling out a lot of the harmful and unnecessary advice still given to young women and girls. As for her ‘followers’, yes there are even a couple of men on there who are like her self appointed body guards. They quite amuse me actually. Having said that though, hers isn’t the only online Christian platform which acts as an echo chamber.
Julie
I definitely appreciate your take. You’re balanced and trying to be a fair judge. Honestly, we could all learn a little something regarding that.
Also Anon
If Sheila and her ministry really wanted to help women in bad situations, wouldn’t they want to come alongside you and offer support so you can find your way out of this abusive church instead of running you off their site? Makes you wonder what they’re really about.
Julie
🎯
Dora R
Evangelicals WORSHIP MEN and downgrade women Simple as That Using the Bible as an excuse to treat women like second rate humans is TERRIBLE
Julie
That’s a broad stroke. ALL evangelicals? Of course, there are bad people in churches. They’re everywhere. Generally, though, I disagree with your assessment. I also wonder what you think makes for 2nd rate citizen treatment. Is it biblical womanhood? I recommend finding a small local church that preaches the Bible exegetically. And focus on how to serve the community rather than focus on your personal picture of equality.
Kp
👎 thumbs down to your review. Shelia and her coauthors have helped many women. I am grateful for them and the work they are doing.
Julie
I’m glad to hear that they draw attention to the abuses and misogyny that we can still find in churches today. I just can’t support the biased and eisegetical interpretation of Scripture they demonstrate. But even false teachers and bad teachers can share helpful information sometimes…
Karen
I don’t disagree with everything Sheila says. I believe she does have a heart to help women. The problem is she has one thing she talks about and that’s it. She also paints a broad brush. She also has joined the Anglican Church which has many theological issues. I think she walks a fine line with some of her ideas on things such as sex etc.
Julie
Very well said!