Finding A Healthy Church: A Response To Sheila Wray Gregoire And Beth Allison Barr

I have avoided addressing the teachings and books put forth by Sheila Wray Gregoire because, frankly, she exhausts me despite her seemingly sincere desire to help women. She reminds me of people I have known who will win arguments by being like a clanging cymbal in the room. Eventually, most people just walk away from the argument and let that kind of person “win.” In addition, she has a group of vicious followers who won’t engage in genuine conversations. Read a comment thread, and you’ll see scores of women ruthlessly and ceaselessly descend on any critic. I want no part of that. But then… She posted a blog and podcast episode with guest, Beth Allison Barr, about finding a healthy church, and the advise they gave was lacking…perhaps damaging. So, let’s do this.

Who Am I Talking About?

Both of these women are professing Christian authors who are not too shy to remind everyone that they are experts in their field. (More on that later.) Most notable for today’s discussion, they are egalitarians who have had negative church experiences which have strongly shaped how they view the Church and the men in it. Finding a healthy church and rejecting what they call “toxic teachings” is a significant part of their work, and I commend them for seeking to help Christians find safe, biblical churches. However, I don’t think they’re actually doing that.

Let’s briefly meet the ladies.

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Gregoire is a Canadian blogger, author, speaker, and podcaster. She used to call her ministry To Love, Honor, and Vacuum (named after a book she wrote), but her focus changed in the last several years which made her original blog title outdated and off mission. She now calls it Bare Marriage.

I have loosely followed Gregoire for about ten years. She wrote about marriage, but the topic she frequently addressed that garnered attention was sex. Gregoire was willing to speak frankly about making sexual intimacy a mutually enjoyable experience in a marriage. She tackled topics that make most people blush, and she was able to do it in a way that made her reader or listener feel encouraged and comfortable.

After years of this work, Gregoire had heard countless stories from women about sexual abuse, rape, spiritual abuse, and a number of other traumatic events that hurt women. Not just any women. Sisters in the Lord. Suddenly, at least to me, she was laser focused on how women were being harmed in the Church and by whom.

Gregoire is currently on the warpath. Through her blog, podcast, and books she is trying to recruit women to help her discredit any conservative, complementarian author or pastor who won’t bow the knee to her vision of healthy biblical teaching concerning sex and gender roles. In most of the content I have read from her blog and books, Gregoire sounds as if she has assumed the worst possible motivations for the people she calls out, and she displays very little understanding of their position. She comes across as a woman who has had enough.

I believe she thinks she is offering real help to women in the Church, but I think she is convincing women that they are victims when they are not. (That is not to say that no women are victims.) And the resources and responses she offers women are unbiblical, and thus, ultimately unhelpful to Christian women. The message she gives screams Christian feminism.

Beth Allison Barr

Barr is a professor at Baylor University where she teaches history. Her areas of focus are medieval and early modern England, women’s history, and Church history. Her Baylor webpage says, “She is interested in how the advent of Protestantism affected women in Christianity as well as how and why medieval perceptions of women in religious literature both changed and stayed the same across the Reformation era. More recently, her research has expanded to include modern evangelicalism (especially Baptists), but her approach is always rooted in the medieval world.” It’s no surprise, given those areas of interest, that she calls herself an activist. She’s entrenched herself in what is essentially “Christian women’s studies” with a medieval focus.

Baylor University: In Case You Didn’t Know

I’d like to make a quick note about Baylor University. I mistakenly thought that Baylor was a reputable Christian University. I mean, didn’t Joanna Gaines go there?

As it turns out, Baylor University is a hot mess of conflicting beliefs. The school advertises a commitment to Christianity and boasts of its Chapel tradition. Meanwhile, Baylor also highlights the “Baylor family” demographics. The list of faith traditions is extensive, but it includes Atheism, Baptist, Buddhist, Catholicism, Full Gospel, Islam, Jehovah’s Witness, Lutheranism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Unitarianism. So, if being a professor is supposed to offer some clout in any serious Christian circles, then it fails miserably. Baylor may be a great place to mingle multiple beliefs and ideas in one place, but it is certainly not an environment where biblical Christianity is meant to thrive.

The Books With Which They’ll Be Finding A Healthy Church

As I mentioned earlier, both Gregoire and Barr are published authors. I won’t cover everything they have written, but there are three significant books in reference to today’s conversation.

The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You’ve Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended

This book was written by Sheila Wray Gregoire (and her writing partners) and released in 2021. The book is based on a survey of approximately 20,000 women, and Gregoire uses the responses from those women to identify and speak against bad teachings about sex in the Church. Despite the fact that I wouldn’t recommend this book, I do agree with some of the things she says about what the Church teaches men and women about sexual intimacy. In fact, I wrote about some of those bad teachings myself. Gregoire, though, lays the blame at the feet of men in leadership positions in churches and Christian authors while alleviating women of any personal responsibility to educate themselves.

The Great Sex Rescue is highly rated by reader reviews, but I would caution you to pay attention to who is reviewing her book. Her own following, perhaps? Always expect a standing ovation when you preach to the choir.

The most common criticisms/accusations are:

1. The respondents were like-minded fans with a bent toward agreeing with the premise.

2. Gregoire was unclear about her methodology, making reproducing the study a near impossibility.

3. There was an overreliance on testimonials.

4. The graphs were vague and sophomoric, and the statistics were not “rigorous.”

5. The foundation was the study, and the Bible was essentially sidelined.

I can’t tell you that all these criticisms are accurate, but I can tell you they are the most frequent ones. Also, I can say from my experience that Gregoire and her followers get irate when someone brings these up.

She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up

This book was also written by Sheila Wray Gregoire (and her team), and it was released in 2023. She Deserves Better was written based on the findings of her research with over 7,000 women and is meant to teach women and girls how to recognize and fight against toxic sexual teachings.

The reviews, again, are overwhelmingly positive, and they are also primarily from apparent feminists who are validated by the book. The criticisms are similar to those for The Great Sex Rescue. My biggest critique is summed up well in blurb on Amazon. The book is advertised to as “biblically informed.” What does that mean? Well, it means the authors know the Bible exists, but it will not be the basis of any conclusions in the research. An author can say “biblically informed” to receive a little recognition from the Christian community, but the Bible will not be the guide. As many critical reviews state, this is a book based on opinion and a survey.

Sheila Wray Gregoire’s Methodology

Gregoire’s studies have been questioned quite a bit, and she finally addressed the issue directly. She said her team used snowball sampling for their study. Summed up quickly, this method begins with the researchers asking for identified individuals to participate. Following that, the participants recruit their acquaintances to participate, and so on. Participation then buildings like a snowball rolling down a hill.

The main advantage of snowball sampling is that it can reach hidden populations through the participants’ social connections. Are women in evangelical churches really a hidden population, though?

The two biggest disadvantages, as I see it, is that snowball sampling is not random. The respondents are, due to the nature of the method, going to have connections to one another. With that in mind, the other big disadvantage is community bias. If I am an egalitarian feminist, who is my community? Who will I ask to participate in the study? Think about that for a minute.

The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth

This book was written by Beth Allison Barr and published in 2021. Like the two other books I discussed, the reviews are generally positive. Women cheer for its affirming message and express relief to have read that their feelings about the Bible have been confirmed.

The most thorough and popular critical review is by Kevin DeYoung. It’s a very long review, so I’d carve out some time and grab a coffee if you plan to read it. Of everything he wrote in his review, the most notable point DeYoung made was that Barr is dissatisfied with women being called to secondary roles. Yes, this sounds like a stereotypical feminist thought, but it also reveals something more about Barr.

Barr’s underlying understanding of the Christian faith is lacking. Her focus on primary and secondary roles is status-seeking and me-focused. No role is more or less important among believers. My husband, the pastor of our church, is just as likely to move furniture, clean the bathrooms, and do dishes after a potluck (we’re Baptists…) as anyone else. His pastoral role sets him apart in terms of his responsibility to the Church, but he is no more important than the member who quietly repairs the parking lot or mops the floors.

What we think is so important now may not be so important to God. Is not an obsession with being first, respected, seen, or in charge just a worldly value?

“So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (emphasis mine)

Matthew 20:16

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 3:28

“For God shows no partiality.”

Romans 2:11 (ESV)

Common Criticism

Some criticisms I have seen are:

1. Barr seems to reject portions of the Bible she dislikes and holds man’s ways above the Word.

2. She has a major beef with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), and it shows.

3. Barr claims the men who put together the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible intentionally hid truths about women and their roles. She says this despite the fact that she is not privy to their conversations, and she is not a theologian.

4. She teaches that the Reformation led to the Patriarchy that took away the women’s spiritual authority which was seen in the medieval Church.

What Does This Have To Do With Finding A Healthy Church?

Nothing! Yet everything… Now you know who these two women are, and you should have a grasp on their worldview. These ladies are popular and impacting many women’s theology and understanding of how the Church works. Not to mention, they are perpetuating hateful rhetoric about men in the Church. Knowing what you know now, we can examine the blog and podcast these two ladies created to help women find a healthy church.

Why Should I Be Finding A Healthy Church?: Toxic Teaching

Gregoire’s blog and podcast featuring Beth Allison Barr repeatedly referenced “toxic” teachings. I’m all about exposing toxic teachings, false teaching, dangerous leaders, etc., but I’m also a fan of clearly defined terms. For two women who insist on having done rigorous study and scientific research, they certainly remain vague. In academia, professionals generally give detailed explanations of technical terms and measurements. In other words, they provide “operational definitions.”

If they believe we should be finding healthy churches without toxic teaching, then they out to clarify what makes a teaching toxic. The underlying message in nearly everything they each write (and said on this podcast) is that complementarianism is the toxic trait from which we should flee in a church. Neither woman clarified her understanding of the term in the blog or podcast. Thankfully, I was able to find their definitions elsewhere.

Sheila Wray Gregoire

I found Gregoire’s definition of complementarianism in the comment section of her post about identifying a legalistic church. Allow me to share the direct quote below.

“Egalatarians believe that God made men and women differently, and that we need each other, and that together, we display the image of God. Both sexes are necessary for this. And thus, one sex is not more important than the other. They also believe that couples are to serve God together and work towards living out God’s will. One person does not have leadership over another.

Complementarians believe that men and women are in a hierarchical relationship, where men lead and make decisions and women follow. The way that you glorify God together is by allowing the man to lead.

Or, to put it another way, egalatarians believe you should try to seek God’s will together. Complementarians believe that the way to find God’s will is through the husband’s will, because that is his special purpose and place in the family.”

Sheila Wray Gregoire, April 4, 2018

Do you see what she’s done here? This is not the definition of complementarianism. She has pitted egalitarianism and complementarianism against each other. One is painted as all good, and the other is described in only negative terms. Gregoire is taking a faulty understanding of complementarianism and using it to vilify a large subset of Christians and, well, the Bible itself.

What Is Complementarianism?

Boiled down to the essentials, complementarians believe men and women were created by God in His image (Genesis 1:26), yet he also created them to complement, or complete, each other. Genesis 2:18 explains that woman was made to help man. Sorry if that steps on some toes, but take it up with God not me.

Complementarians look to Ephesians 5:21-33 for instructions on how the home should run. This looks like the husband being the spiritual leader. He will also sacrificially love his wife. Meanwhile, his wife will submit to her husband. This does not mean she is subjugated, abused, or treated as a doormat with no voice of her own. Women do not have to allow their husbands to sin against them.

I like John Piper’s definition of submission. He says it is the “calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership, and so help to carry it through according to her gifts.”

Got Questions sums up the heart behind complementarianism better than I could. It says, “Men and women are equally valued in God’s sight and in His plan. Complementarianism seeks to preserve the biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles while valuing the quality and importance of both genders. The result of true complementarianism is honor to Christ and harmony in the church and in the home.”

Will there be men, leaders, and churches who abuse complementarianism? Undoubtedly. But man’s potential sin shouldn’t lead us to reject God’s clear instructions. We need to stop calling out the Bible when people sin and use the Bible to call out the sin.

Beth Allison Barr

In her book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood, Barr uses the terms “biblical womanhood,” “complementarianism”, and “Patriarchy” interchangeably. And they are all bad words by her measure. On the second page of her book, she says what she believed biblical womanhood means. “God designed women primarily to be submissive wives, virtuous mothers, and joyful homemakers. God designed men to lead in the home as husbands and fathers, as well as in church as pastors, elders, and deacons.”

Barr wanted to be spiritual leader and was not satisfied with her role in her church. (She explains the events that led to her leaving her church and embracing egalitarianism in the podcast.) I think she had a misunderstanding concerning a woman’s role. Barr saw her position as mother and wife as less significant than the responsibilities some men have. Apparently, she saw the blessing of motherhood and being a wife as subjugation.

In addition, somehow being a college professor was not enough fulfillment for her. Certainly, others view her as a leader in her field and well-educated. However, Barr seems to have wanted that in the spiritual realm, as well.

Who Is Qualified To Help When You Are Finding A Healthy Church?

I’m not a huge proponent of sending boys off to seminary. Although it was difficult, I think my husband having a secure way to earn an income while volunteering in church for years before entering seminary made him much more equipped to pastor when he graduated than the inexperienced boys with no marketable skills holding a seminary degree in their hands. At the same time, Bible training is a must. Gregoire and Barr seem less convinced.

Barr thinks her husband’s social work degree is what made him a good youth pastor. As a former social worker, I can say that my social work education is wildly unbiblical and completely useless in a Christian setting. So, agree to disagree, I guess?

Both women have received questions regarding their qualifications when they discuss theological issues. I don’t think you need a Bible degree to be qualified to discuss theology, but you better back what you say with Scripture. You had better have done your research. Gregoire and Barr, though, see their secular experiences and degrees in other subjects as qualifications. I don’t know if Barr understands this, but being a historian does not mean she is also a theologian.

Barr is so convinced of her own superior qualifications that she insinuated on the podcast that pastors are only qualified to teach the gospel. If they want to offer counsel, then they better be board certified, too, because these women don’t want biblical counseling near any women in the Church. (Are they afraid they might hear 1 Timothy 2:11-12?)

Frankly, ladies like Gregoire and Barr have disqualified themselves to speak on biblical matters, not by being women, but by elevating worldly wisdom above His Holy Word.

Finally, Finding A Healthy Church

What a wild ride! But we’ve finally arrived. You know who these women are, what they believe about toxicity in the Church, and who they see as qualified teachers in the Church. So, let’s look at their advice for finding a healthy church.

1. Visit other churches of various denominations with no intent to stay.

The ladies think believers need to see what kind of other churches might be out there for them in order to avoid landing in a similarly toxic church. They believe this exposure will help teach you about your options and what healthy can look like. The ladies suggested visiting churches you have no intention of joining or serving. As a pastor’s wife, can I tell you just how much we love when people come to our church for self-serving purposes and have already decided they would never attend? (Note sarcasm)

It’s all right to visit churches, to be unsure about where you want to go, and to visit on occasion, but this approach is markedly self-centered. Why go at all if you know it’s wrong for you? For instance, as an Independent Baptist I would never attend a Full Gospel church. I know my beliefs don’t align with theirs, so why waste my time and theirs?

Instead, think through what you believe about God and the Bible, and then visit churches that seem to line up with those beliefs. Finding a healthy church is a serious task that should be treated as such. Don’t just throw spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Visit churches thoughtfully.

2. Poke around the website.

Agreed. The website is where you’ll find the statement of beliefs, information about staff, church history, and whatnot. However, this is not the kind of information you’re encouraged to look for on Gregoire’s blog.

She suggests you look for “harmful” book suggestions or a hint of purity culture as possible red flags. “What books?” you might ask. A few examples of books that Gregoire speaks out against include Love and Respect, Every Man’s Battle, And the Bride Wore White, and The Excellent Wife. If the book is complementarian, you can safely assume she wants it removed from shelves.

While you look at a church’s website, she also wants you to look for some good signs. If the church has counseling, check to see if the counselors are licensed. Biblical counseling is a no-go. And of course, look for female staff. Are they pastors or “just” administrative workers? No women in pastoral leadership, according to Gregoire and Barr, is problematic and indicates a potentially toxic church. It’s funny, because it indicates a healthy church which bases its leadership on a biblical model, in my opinion.

3. Do a Google search for the church and denomination.

Well, I mean, yes! I Google everything. We’d never eat in my home if we didn’t have search engines. Any other moms with me on this one?

If I were looking up a church online, I’d look for the website, its social media presence, and reviews people may have left. The blog recommends more specific Google searches than what I would do. The post identifies important search terms such as, “abuse,” “police,” and “former member.” I can see why someone might want to see if the church has had any abuse accusations or arrests in the past, but looking up former members is dangerously biased. People who leave a church with no ill will are not going to be on the Internet discussing that church. On the other hand, someone who leaves with a chip on her shoulder is much more likely to have bad things to say and post those thoughts online. It’s better to form your opinion without other people’s personal history informing your experience.

If I looked up a denomination, I’d focus on what beliefs they hold. If they reject things like the resurrection, deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc., then I would know the denomination is not for me. Gregoire’s blog post suggest a different route with terms like, “abuse scandals,” “annual meeting,” and “annual convention.” Does any of that ring a bell? Yeah…that’s a cue to stay away from the SBC. I’m telling you; these ladies really don’t like Baptists.

4. Maybe just take a break or start your own church.

Gregoire and Barr both recognize the importance of church, but they suggested it might be time to take a break from church. Depending on what happened at your previous church, I can’t argue against that. It might be necessary. But I’d keep it very short.

Nevertheless, I’m not willing to recommend that people go about starting churches because they can’t find one they like. We have all heard of the echo chamber by now. Surrounding yourself with your friends who think the same as you and don’t have any Bible education may lead to its own form of toxicity and unbiblical teaching. Not to mention, there is a complete lack of oversight and accountability in those scenarios. Be cautious before taking that step.

How To Actually Find A Healthy Church

Finding a healthy church is extremely important, and there truly are plenty of churches that teach lies and even harmful things. Nonetheless, starting your church search with “toxic” and “abuse” in your mind is not necessarily going to lead you to what every Christian needs. A Bible-preaching church.

Look for a church that faithfully teaches from the Bible every week. Observe how the members treat you and each other. Talk to the pastor and ask him for his testimony. Find out how they engage the community. Ask if they support missions. Does the church have a good reputation in the community? And remember, teaching that men and women have been designed with unique gifts and skills is not toxic or abusive. It’s just what the Bible says.

Final Thought

I hope that you take this as a warning about who you listen to and which teachers you follow. Sheila Wray Gregoire and Beth Allison Barr are educated women who appear to genuinely want to help others. They are prime examples of sincere people being sincerely wrong.

Ladies, we are bombarded with women who can speak well, have impressive degrees, ooze confidence, and sound like they know what they are talking about. When you encounter someone new, take a step back and look into what she actually believes. It might mean you need to wait a few days to begin reading a book from a new author to figure out where she’s coming from, but it’s absolutely worth it.

What do you think of Gregoire and Barr? Are they sound teachers, radical feminists, or something else entirely?

Image courtesy of Gregory Hayes via Unsplash.