3 Reasons Saddleback Church Fails The Gospel And You
Saddleback Church, Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, and Celebrate Recovery have always been on my something-ain’t-right-here list. However, for the five years my husband and I spent as Southern Baptists, it seemed like Pastor Warren got a pass for anything questionable about his church. Last week, though, Saddleback Church finally did something outright unbiblical. Warren’s church not only committed this act, but they publicly celebrated it.
Female Pastors
Yes, that’s right. Saddleback ordained three women on May 6, 2021. What’s the big deal, you ask? Well, Southern Baptists don’t approve of female pastors because…the Bible. I’m not going to do a whole post about why female pastors are not biblical. But let’s quickly look at the most commonly used scripture to explain this position.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2:11-14
There are endless arguments against this teaching, but they are all just grasping at straws to fight against a plain biblical teaching that does not suit modern-day sensibilities. If you believe that women can and/or should be pastors, I ask you to flip your method of interpreting the Word. Stop sieving the Bible through your worldview and presuppositions. Rather, filter your worldview and beliefs through the truth of His Word. Christians ought to start with the Bible, not tack it onto what they already believe.
If you want to investigate this issue, I’d start HERE. It’s a short, tidy article explaining why pastoral ministry is exclusively male. For now, let’s move on.
Kay Warren, Rick Warren’s wife, added insult to injury on Mother’s Day and gave the Sunday message. Because as we’ve seen with Beth Moore, Mother’s Day appears to negate the strict biblical mandates of pastoral ministry in liberal American churches.
This is not the first time Kay Warren has taken the pulpit, however. As I said, earlier, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has given this church carte blanche to do whatever suits Warren.
I’m actually a little excited about Saddleback ordaining women because this gives the SBC no choice but to address female preaching. If SBC leadership won’t speak out against this, then both Saddleback and the SBC would be exposed for poor doctrine. I’d rather that than allow them to continue on with liberal and progressive practices while Christian leadership nods along like everything is all good. (Don’t count on the SBC to do anything, though, they’ve silently been allowing female preaching for years.)
Before this ordaining women fiasco, though, I already had reservations about Rick Warren and Saddleback Church. So, let’s take a look at three ways Saddleback is failing the gospel, and ultimately, you.
1. The Church Emphasis
(All the information I share in this section is from the Saddleback Church website, unless otherwise noted.)
Rick Warren and his wife started Saddleback with a vision to plant a church “for people who didn’t like church.” I could tell you oodles about the church history because Saddleback loves itself some Saddleback. Know what I mean? Not only is there a thorough history on the site, but you can receive more of Warren’s Saddleback Church history from the 101 class offered to new members.
I was concerned with the beliefs section of the site, but Saddleback presents itself as quite doctrinally sound. It sounds like Warren based his church on fundamental biblical principles, so what can I say? Does the rubber meet the road?
No.
For starters, in a previous post I wrote called Your Church Just Might Be A Social Club, I discussed the results of someone listening to 18 hours of sermons at several of the biggest churches in the U.S., Saddleback being one of them. None of the churches gave a clear gospel presentation.
The “Gospel”
The website, I thought, might be clearer. Not so much. The story of Jesus is given (yay!), but it’s presented in a safe, child-like way. There’s an obvious assumption the reader has no clue who Jesus is or why He is important. With that in mind, I’m fine with making the story easy to understand. On the other hand, you can’t skip fundamentals like the seriousness of sin, Hell, and repentance and still be sharing the whole gospel. Or you can do this, and then your church will explode in size because your pastor is a self-help guru, not a faithful preacher of the Word of God.
Let’s pretend you read this watered down “gospel,” and you want to be saved. I have great news for you! There’s a button to push for that, and it will zip you over to a video of Rick Warren seemingly wrapping up a message. You’re watching this short video clip for the “the prayer of salvation” he says at the end.
After exiting the video, you will be welcomed to the family of God by some other guy. The webpage has resources for discipleship and ways to plug into a Saddleback church. There are fourteen in California. You will also see the four steps a new believer should take.
1. Pray to God – Check! Looking good!
2. Baptism – This is a good thing. You should be baptized, but maybe you should learn how to discern a healthy Christian church from the, ahem, not so good ones… You don’t want to get baptized somewhere you’ll later regret.
3. Get a Bible – There it is! I was wondering when we’d get to this. I know I’m just a regular person and haven’t started my own female-ordaining mega-church, but maybe having access to God’s Word should have been a bit sooner?
4. Get Connected – Yes, but if somehow you managed to get saved through this clumsy attempt at sharing the gospel, you have no guidance in how to find a church besides Saddleback. I understand it’s Saddleback’s website, and I would expect it to encourage people to join them. However, Warren should be expecting, due to his popularity, that people might venture on his site who are nowhere near one of his campuses. In that case, a little help in this area would be needed and responsible of him and his ministry.
The Pastor Page
Oh, dear. I don’t know if someone designed the Rick Warren pastor page to be this cringeworthy on purpose or if it was a terrible accident. But, ya’ll, it is so cringey. The page is reminiscent of a fan page on a boy band website. Large pictures of him living his best life now while describing him in such a way that it feels a little cultish. A little Joseph Smith, maybe.
I don’t know. I might be the only one with this impression, but this page mixed with the embarrassing overuse of the word purpose all over the website is a little much for me. Self-promotion and pastor don’t seem to jive.
So, how has the church emphasis failed the gospel? Essentially, the gospel isn’t present. Certainly, it is missing in how Saddleback presents itself publicly.
1. Warren isn’t regularly preaching it.
2. The website provides the Cliff’s Notes version of the gospel.
3. Saddleback, like many mega-churches, uses its online platform (the website) as a marketing strategy with testimonials, self-help sayings (“You weren’t just meant to believe; You were made to belong.”), and an almost idolatrous love of the pastor/founder.
I left the website knowing that I have a place to have purpose, and Rick Warren is peachy keen. Oh yeah, and Jesus…
2. The Purpose Driven Life
The New York Times Bestseller, The Purpose Driven Life, is beloved. Has anyone ever wondered why so many people would like the same book? Christians can’t even peacefully agree on a Bible translation, but millions will read and love this book? And what about unbelievers? Why would they like it?
I thought I would be all alone in my opinion of Warren’s book, and I was partially correct. It’s difficult to find critical reviews of it. Some fringe weirdos (like me?) expressed some concerns, but most recognizable names were positive. Tim Challies, however, was not impressed with The Purpose Driven Life, and he wrote a thoughtful review on it. I’m going to share some of his points here.
Not Biblically Based
The book, itself, is not born of Scripture despite containing over 1,200 Bible quotes. The standards given in the book are based on Warren’s experience. This, obviously, makes it secular for all intents and purposes.
Twisted Scripture
Warren uses a lot of Bible verses in The Purpose Driven Life, but he consistently engages in eisegesis. So, he looks at the Bible through the lens of his own ideas and uses Scripture out of its proper context and meaning to support those ideas.
Challies gives an example of Warren using Job 22:21, “Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.” Warren uses this verse in a positive way in his book. However, in its proper context we discover this is bad advice given by one of Job’s friends. Apparently, Warren plucked it out of Job without thought of the true meaning of the text. A regular occurrence in The Purpose Driven Life, it seems.
Absent Gospel
Here we are again. No gospel to be found, but he does invite the reader to accept Christ. The book makes no mention of sin, the need for a Savior, Jesus’ life, His death at the cross, or the empty tomb. What Christ is Warren suggesting people accept? Without all that information, it certainly is not the Jesus of the Bible.
Then why does Warren tell his readers to accept Jesus? According to Warren’s book, we will find purpose when we know the Lord, and purpose is what we need most.
Another missing gospel, a focus on something other than Jesus, and mishandling Scripture make for another gospel failing.
3. Celebrate Recovery
Now what on earth can someone have against Celebrate Recovery (CR)? It’s an addictions ministry… Julie, do you want people to overcome addiction or not?
Well, CR is the icing on the cake of this hot mess we call Rick Warren ministry. Let me first clarify something. CR was not created by Warren. His congregant, John Baker, created it with Warren’s support. It continues today as a ministry out of Warren’s church, Saddleback Church.
C’mon, look behind the curtain with me.
Bad, Bad Hermeneutics
CR has twelve steps like AA, but now each step has a tacked-on Bible verse. The program also consists of eight principles for recovery from the Beatitudes. The Beatitudes are generally accepted as descriptions of the character of God’s kingdom.
As seen in The Purpose Driven Life, CR uses eisegesis to unite these eight principles with Scripture. To begin, Celebrate Recovery claims the Beatitudes are ways to be happy. Rather than Jesus’ lessons about the kingdom during the Sermon on the Mount, CR is offering Your Best Life Now kinda stuff.
An example of this eisegesis can be seen with the following verse:
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”
Matthew 5:8
Celebrate Recovery uses this verse to support the principle that to recover, I need to “examine and confess my faults to myself, to God, and to someone I trust.” This is a completely unrelated interpretation of that verse. In Matthew 5:8 Jesus is addressing the Pharisees’ teaching that following the Law would save you. He is telling them it is the cleanliness of the inner man that matters. Of course, this purity of heart is only possible through repentance and belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. In short, Matthew 5:8 and this CR principle are not even tangentially related.
Focus On Self
Any addictions program will have a great deal of self-reflection and self-awareness. That’s a given. However, a Christian addictions program ought to avoid promoting self over Jesus.
Celebrate Recovery advises people to forgive themselves and forgive God. I’m going to skip over forgiving ourselves and look right to forgiving God. This demonstrates a complete ignorance of who God is. He is good (James 1:17), gracious (Psalm 145:17), holy (Isaiah 6:3), immutable (Psalm 33:11), loving (1 John 4:8), merciful (Titus 3:5), and just (Romans 1:32). God doesn’t need our forgiveness, and to suggest otherwise is foolishness. He is not the cause of your problems and poor choices.
CR also encourages participants to improve their self-esteem and self-image. In Matthew 22:39 Jesus tells those listening to love their neighbors as they love themselves. Why say that? Is it because people struggle with loving themselves enough? Absolutely not! Face it, no one loves you as much as you do. We need to change how we see God, not ourselves.
Mixed Gospel Messages
Celebrate Recovery shares how to be born again, but the program’s focus is the program. CR offers an opportunity to say “the prayer of salvation” (which is not a real thing, by the way), and shares testimonies about salvation that are more about recovery than Jesus. Church membership is suggested but not insisted upon. On the other hand, continued CR attendance is imperative. CR gives the impression that Jesus is a step toward the goal of recovery rather than being of the utmost importance.
So, once again, we see a poorly given gospel message with more focus on Saddleback’s product than anything else.
Final Thought
A church can be large, successful, and led by a world famous pastor and not be the ideal. That pastor’s books can be bestsellers. His church can have a wildly popular ministry. Church growth can be through the roof. Don’t let all that fool you.
Be discerning. Be hypervigilant. My personal rule of thumb is that if the church, book, etc. is loved by everyone, then I need to look closely for the problem. That may sound cynical. Maybe it is. But churches like Saddleback lure people in with friendliness and self-help styled sermons. They water down the gospel, downplay sin, and cater to worldly preferences instead of focusing on biblical principles.
Churches like Saddleback assure people of their salvation when they’ve never heard the whole gospel. We need to call out these misleading ministries and lead people to truth before they hear, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23).
Resources For Celebrate Recovery:
(* I have read through the leader information when previously considering starting CR in a previous church.)
UPDATE: I’ve written a post entitled Rick Warren, Female Pastors, And The Battle For The SBC to discuss Saddleback Church being disfellowshipped in February 2023.
Image courtesy of Rod Long via Unsplash.
59 Comments
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Pepper
I think you are utterly and completely wrong about both Rick Warren and Saddleback Church. I find it incredibly sad when Christians seek to tear each other down.
Julie
You are allowed your opinion, as am I. I am not seeking to tear down another Christian. He is a public figure who many people look to for spiritual guidance. Sadly, he misuses Scripture, apparently affirms female pastors, and he does not give a clear gospel message (sin and death included), despite having a huge audience. I assume you see me, and others like me, as judgmental and mean. But I love the Church, and I am grieved by the dangerous and lukewarm teachings of men and women like Rick Warren. I pray for him, and others in a similarly unique position of influence regularly, but I believe it is cowardly and unloving to not warn others of bad Bible teaching.
You are welcome to disagree and hold to whatever beliefs you hold on the subject, and I respect your opinion. Although we do not see eye to eye on this topic, I do pray you have many blessings in the years to come. God bless!
Elizabeth
I agree with you Pepper. It is sad to see other believers tear another down. Yes Julie, you are allowed to have one’s opinion, but Julie, is it necessary to make an entire post about it? It is your opinion that you find the message to not be clear. The way he delivers his “lukewarm” message doesn’t resonate with you and that’s fine, you have every right to go to a different church. Rick Warren and the church has changed many lives, including mine. Instead of focusing on a church and its leader and criticizing why you think it is bad bible teaching, why not change the focus and write a post about the church you attend to attract people? People are not perfect nor are churches. But overall Saddleback has made an enormous impact of bringing many people to Christ. It might not be the way you think is right, but only God sees one’s true heart and intentions. We are all different and take many approaches on teaching God’s word; that’s what’s most important.
Your opinion can influence someone who possibly is thinking about attending church to the first time, and discouraging them. Your opinion could’ve prevented someone from finding God. Everyone has rights to opinions but it’s not necessary to have to post them. My point is that you could’ve pivoted your message to offering the opportunity to invite people to the church you attend and discuss why you think it’s great instead of stating all the wrong things about Saddleback. Easy to judge mistakes of others. Difficult is to recognize your own mistakes.
Julie
Hi, Elizabeth. Thank you for commenting. You bring up some very important thoughts. First, you say it’s OK that I have my personal opinions, but you then correct me for sharing them. If a whole post on the subject is wrong, then I wonder how much is acceptable to you. Would a couple of paragraphs have been fair? You then went on to tell me what kind of posts I should be posting instead and how to correct my post to make it more palpable to you. I can appreciate that my blog is not your taste. I wouldn’t expect everyone to like it, of course, but why should I accommodate my writing for your sensibilities? Instead, I suggest that you find blogs to read that speak to you and your needs. If you, however, find there’s a lack of content you want to read, then I suggest you start a blog and share what you want to see on the internet. (I’m not kidding. You write well, and you are obviously passionate about your faith.) I mention this because it’s a bit inconsistent to tell me I can have my opinion, but in the next breath, tell me if and how I should share it…
Second, you also implied that I am tearing down other Christians. I’m not. In my tiny corner of the internet, I am sharing concerns about a hugely popular pastor. My concerns about Rick Warren and Saddleback are not about “mistakes,” though. A mistake is generally accepted as an unintentional thing. Meanwhile, Warren’s decision to support female pastors, misuse Scripture in His book and CR, and preach the salvation of Christ without first teaching on sin and Hell is not a mistake. That is sin. What should believers do about pastors who lead others astray? We need to be alert (Acts 20:29-31). We should not be tossed to and fro by any old doctrine (Ephesians 4:14). And we need to “test everything: hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). His teachings and poor handling of Scripture are corrupting the gospel, assuring some people of a salvation they cannot have yet because they have not recognized their wickedness and need for salvation, and/or made believers who follow him unequipped to handle the Word because he doesn’t consistently use it correctly.
Third, you told me that I might have stopped people from finding God. There is nothing I have said that has been against the Lord. Rather, I am asking people to reconsider Rick Warren and Saddleback. His own website says he started Saddleback as a “church for people who didn’t like church.” My post is warning against a teacher who is so seeker-sensitive that he started a church to appease people who weren’t into church. And he does this by making the gospel and his church easier for the world to tolerate, but it’s so watered down it is barely recognizable. My prayer is that people turn back to solid Bible teaching in their local churches. (I don’t promote my own church because I encourage local church membership.)
Fourth, you said people have many approaches to teaching God’s Word. Yes, I agree with you. Each person is different and comes at the teaching from their own history, personality, etc. At the same time, the Bible isn’t really open to multiple interpretations in most places. Yet, his frequent use of proof-texting and his ordination of women proves He plays a bit too fast and loose with his Bible interpretations.
Finally, you clearly think that I am picking apart someone while not seeing my own mistakes. You made a good point. No one is perfect. No church is perfect. And, without a doubt, that is so true of me. I actually write about my struggles with sin and how God is working in my life on those things. That doesn’t mean I can’t draw attention to dangerous or lukewarm teachers and churches.
It seems like we will have to agree to disagree. But thank you for considering what I wrote and writing a thoughtful comment. I can assure you that I spent time prayerfully considering the points you made in your comment. I am happy to hear you believe your life has been positively changed through Warren’s ministry, and I wish you all the best in the future. Many blessings.
Ella
🙄
Brittany Rudel
God made you a hammer, He made me a screw driver, He made Rick Warren a Saw. None of your other fellow Christians are nails. The harder you pound on others who interpret, believe or lead in a way that your hammer mind doesn’t agree with, the more you destroy tools made by God for other purposes. Snide comments, sarcasm & prideful nit picking spread nothing but negativity. It’s not becoming of a lady who is set apart. The whole world talks this way to each other & about each other. If you want to teach what you believe is right, do that. Pissing on everybody else doesn’t make your walk look any better, love.
Peace be with you.
Julie
I’m not “hammering” anyone. Also, my post is not snide or prideful. I have read this post over and over again because I want to take any critical comments I receive seriously and to check my tone. I prayerfully consider what is said to me. (Frankly, the more chances I give Rick Warren, the more negative things I find about him as a pastor.) Sadly, most negative comments I get on this post ultimately make the same points. 1.) “You sound judgmental, and judge not lest ye be judged.” 2.) “You’re not a good Christian because you are mean.” 3.) “Rick Warren is wonderful, and here are some personal experiences…”
One of the biggest problems in the Church today is tolerance of false teachers. I’m not sure people even know them when they see them. Rick Warren certainly seems to be slipping past a bunch of people.
This blog post is not to teach what I think is right, Brittany. I am warning believers of a false teacher. When a pastor neglects the gospel and adherence to God’s Word, he is not serving “God for other purposes.” He is not serving God. The end.
Being set apart requires we use discernment to steer clear of unbiblical teaching and false teachers. If Christians love their Ted Talk pastor more than God’s Word and His instructions, then I don’t know what to say. I’m not going to ignore the wolf in the room for anyone’s comfort. You, and many others, assume the worst and think I am speaking from my personal viewpoint. I’m not. Instead, I’m comparing Bible teaching to Warren’s teaching. When there’s incongruence, it’s best to side with God.
If you’re not convinced of the importance of marking and avoiding false teachers, then I suggest you read my post on why we should call them out. (https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/) If you don’t want to read my take on it because I’m obviously not your cup of tea, then Google it. I’m not the first or last Christian to address this topic.
God bless!
Suzanne
Julie you are nothing except discerning n humbly speaking the truth. Just pray for all the liberals daking a belief in the Bible n Jesus Christ.
Julie
Thank you!
Tina DuCharme
Julie, Thank you for posting this and calling this out. You are 100% correct! I attended Saddleback for many years but so happy to now be in a church that teaches the Bible in depth, verse by verse. May God bless you and continue to use you.
Julie
Thank you for commenting! And I am so happy that you found a church that digs into the meat of the Word. A healthy, sound church is such a gift. God bless you!
Chuck
Julie,
Kudos to you! These “Christians” who are criticizing you simply don’t want to read their Bibles and understand that Paul called out all kinds of heretics. It’s right there. Paul wanted to stick to the Faith when others beliefs crept in. I was aware of Warren’s heretical practices years ago. The comments just prove the Church is apostate. They have no idea that Warren promotes an ecumenical union with other religions in the world. He refuses to address sin. He also refuses to refute homosexuality. He’s literally ushering in a one world religion and setting the stage for the anti-Christ. Most Christians couldn’t even accept that fact because their church isn’t talking about Revelation nor are they looking at the world with a Biblical world view. Bethel and Hillsong are also doing the same thing. God is just love. Jesus is just love. Never mind He died on a cross because of our terrible, damning sin and He created the world out of nothing.
Thank you for this post. If anything, you didn’t go far enough, but you were 100% correct. Paul was crucified for sticking to the Faith. Ignorant comments are nothing compared to that. These critics are blind and need the Holy Spirit to open their eyes.
God bless!
Julie
Thank you! Every time I receive a comment on this post, I close my eyes and click on it with hesitancy. Usually, they’re way off base, and many end up in the trash because they are just personal insults directed at me. It’s refreshing to read comments that remind me others see what’s going on and desire to obey the Lord. God bless you!
Keno
Julie,
Let me start with..
I attended Saddleback church back before Purpose Driven Life and it was in tents. In the beginning Rick had his way of being a salesman from the very start.
How many times he would say how him and his wife Kay started this church. How important it was to go to his membership classes 101-401 and get plugged into a purpose for attending his church.
Saddleback has always taught its all about Saddleback. Even the shirts they sell on the patio is all about Saddleback or Purpose Driven something. Even on the back of the first addition of Rick book Lee Strobel a friend of Rick’s said, If their is any book you should read in the world it’s this book by Rick ( of course not the Bible ).
Even the secular events at Saddleback like Fall Festival lets celebrate Satan day of the year and make sure you don’t wear any scary mask. Or the tree lighting event so everyone can come around the 60ft tree and drink hot coco and take pictures. I can do that at the mall and Santa is there to. Or let’s not forget Rick’s tradition of the very last song sang at every Christmas service Feliz Navidad. Not Silent Night or Hark the Herald Angel’s or Away in the Manger.
Even now with Andy Wood the new preacher who was chosen only because he was going to model Rick’s view of Purpose Purpose Purpose and of course his wife is a pastor wife as well.
I stopped by recently and inquire with some who were attending the church and asked what they thought about women pastors and the common answer was, We have mixed views about it. One guy I asked are you a member here he said yeah for 40 years. I asked where is your Bible and his answer was I read it once 30 years ago. Then he said all I know is Saddleback helped me with my four daughters when they were in trouble. Never mentioned his relationship with Jesus Christ or being saved or baptized or even that Jesus Christ was his Rock. Instead it’s proof that you can have feel good stories but is anyone truly getting saved and sold out for Jesus Christ or its a place where people go to feel good about themselves.
I went to the church office and sat down with a pastor Mike there. Expressed my concerns but in short he sent me on my way by saying, When you find the Perfect church let him know. My answer to him should of been when I find a church teaching the Word of God in Orange County I will let him know.
The entire church needs Repentance because we are closer to Jesus Christ return then 90 % of Christians are aware of.
Revelation is unfolding before our very eyes and worst part is most churches in America that say they are Christians are blinded by the things of this world and not looking up or looking forward to his coming.
Blessing to you Julie our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you and keep you well. Amen.
Keno
Julie
Wow! That is eye opening! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Sometimes I wonder if I’m crazy or something for thinking Saddleback is in the wrong. This definitely supports my interpretation of things.
I’ll be praying for Saddleback and everyone involved there. Also, I’ll be praying for God to continue to bless you and praise Him for giving you such discernment.
Spike
Hi Julie, I agree with much of what you say, though I think you are over thinking it… God uses many questionable things but people get saved. Paul celebrated that even those that preached out of selfishness didn’t matter; the gospel was moving forward! You’re describing issues common to many mega churches, and you might consider that you’ll see these people in Heaven one day. The only area you are completely off the mark (and quite innocently) is in the recovery program. As a recovered alcoholic (decades ago) I can assure you that the addict HAS to put there recovery as the sole purpose of the program. You don’t know hopeless until you’ve been that hopeless. They don’t need to know about hell; they live there and in addiction they are prevented from thinking of anything but them selves… that is what addiction is. They finally came to believe on there own they can’t do it but that there is one who can and will help them if they ask, and that one is god. It’s not about salvation or the gospel or Jesus, it’s about admitting they are powerless, and asking God to help. And he always helps! Those that fail just really aren’t ready to quit, and those that actually realize from rock bottom a god in Heaven will help, always can quit. If anything, the scripture additions they use in their program only make it harder for the addict. Regardless, most addicts in recovery realize they need god to stay in recovery and a new journey with the lord begins. To end as I began, I wouldn’t attend saddleback (or any SBC) but the body of Christ is built up by all its members bringing their diversity of gifts. I wonder how many poor souls were freed from addiction by their ministry? God is awesome.
Julie
God IS awesome! I love your positivity and focus on that. Also, congratulations on your sobriety. My family has a history of alcoholism, and I watched my mom slowly kill herself through her addiction. I, myself, had a dangerous drinking habit into my mid-twenties. I believe that without the salvation he granted me at 26 years old, I’d be a another victim of alcoholism.
I agree that God can do anything through anything. Even megachurches. LOL. I personally cannot stand behind them, but certainly there are plenty of people who are true believers in those churches. I do think in many cases, and this is just my opinion, that God is working in spite of the megachurch to accomplish His will.
I understand how overwhelming addiction is and how impossible it can feel to overcome. And for some, like my mother, it proves to be stronger than they are. At the same time, the addiction is the secondary issue. I’ve seen people completely renewed after salvation. I’m not suggesting an addict will be in recovery the next day. That’d be foolish to expect. However, they had a much easier time than previously in dealing with their addiction. It’s amazing how that inability to only think of ourselves can be changed with the power of salvation.
Here’s my least popular thought, though… I am not primarily concerned with the an addict getting clean. Someone in recovery but not saved is ultimately no better off. That person will be a sober recipient of Hell. That just breaks my heart. So, when a Christian recovery program misuses and abuses Scripture, I see a secular program with a veneer of Christianity. And it fails the people who go through the program whether they leave in recovery or not. A soul freed from addiction but not from the bondage of sin is still damned.
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AA
When your ministry and church have led over 50000 people to Christ, you may have more right to sit in judgement. Until then, keep quiet.
Julie
By the same logic, you should probably refrain from commenting on someone’s blog post… It doesn’t make sense, you know? So, I can only conclude that the real reason you want me to “keep quiet” is because you don’t like my opinion. Although a valid right of yours to disagree with me, it doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to speak.
Also, I recommend that we be careful about accepting any ministry’s recorded decisions for Christ. False conversions are real, and the risk only gets more significant when the church is loose on exegetical teaching or waters down the gospel. Have people been saved at Saddleback? I’m sure. And praise the Lord! But that doesn’t give the ministry a free pass on its areas of weakness or disobedience to the Word (e.g., ordaining women).
Thanks for giving the post a read, though. And I’m glad to see that you understand the importance of salvation. We might agree on more than you think.
God bless!
Mac
You are a small petty jealous man. You make theology your God and replace Grace with your endless list of grievances. You and your kind are the epitome of a modern Pharisee. You strain at gnats abs swallow camels. You prop up a gospel that nobody can live up to so you feel superior. You are full of ugliness and pride. This is why your churches are dying a slow death and churches like Saddleback are thriving. Of course you will use your declining membership as sign of walking a pure and narrow walk. I know countless people whose lives have literally been saved through their involvement with CR.
CRs foundational principles are based on the a sermon on the Mount. Why is that so bad? I marvel at your self righteous self proclaimed view that you are the only person in all Christianity that has the one true oath. Guess what.., the men you criticize are actually in the trenches fighting fir the souls of men. Of course your theology probably believes that battle is futile because your sovereign uncaring god had already condemned all but those who believe as you to hell anyway. Go back to your white washed sepulcher where you and your associates are most comfortable. Leave the lost wicked dying and addicted to those who give a damn. PS.. I one of those theologically challenged slobs who actually was saved at a CR. No thanks to you.
Julie
Comments like yours are difficult to respond to because they are almost entirely emotional. First, congratulations on your recovery. If you read some of my other posts you would know that I have a mom who died as a result of her alcoholism. I was on a fast track to a similar fate, but salvation through Jesus led to my sobriety. Second, you did not address any of my criticisms with counterarguments. You don’t agree and you think I’m a terrible person, but that doesn’t refute my points. Third, experiences don’t trump the Bible. Yes, theology is important and doctrine matters. Otherwise, what is it that we believe? Titus 1:9 says, “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” Similarly, Titus 2:1 says, “But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.”
I’m not sure if you understand what “straining gnats and swallowing camels” means. The accusation there is that I take great pains to avoid minor infractions/offenses, but I accept big sins. I’m definitely not “straining gnats” by pointing out that a world famous pastor gives a weak gospel or maybe even none at all. It’s not minor to openly and unrepentantly disobey God’s Word by ordaining female pastors. Did you read the post or just the title?
I don’t prop up a gospel no one can live up to. The gospel is that we’re all sinners and are going to Hell, Jesus came to Earth as man and God to live a sinless life and He took the punishment for our sins on the cross. He was buried and resurrected 3 days later, defeating death and offering us the free gift of salvation. All we must do is repent and believe. It’s beautiful, and Rick Warren often leaves this out a lot. No one can “live up to” the gospel. We fail, and the gospel is the good news that Jesus has offered us as the way to be reconciled to God.
You’ve made some assumptions about who I am and what I believe. For one, you called me a man. I’m Julie. I’m a pastor’s wife and mother to 5 children. Second, you think I’m jealous of Rick Warren. I assure you I’m not. I’m actually sad that he is so liberal and strays from the gospel. I pray for him and other pastors often. Third, you’ve accused me of being prideful, self-righteous, and claim I think I am the only one who knows the Truth. Lots of people know the Truth, but there is only one place to find it. The Bible. And when a person knows doctrine, then that person can identify when someone is teaching something inconsistent with God’s Word. This kind of discernment is not self-righteousness. It’s wisdom. Fourth, you seem to think you know about my church and my beliefs. You have a little bit wrong, though. For example, God didn’t condemn anyone to Hell. People choose to reject Him, and our God serves perfect justice which is separation from Him in Hell. And as a side note: A large audience (which is what Saddleback has) is not necessarily indicative of a successful church. It could be just a place that entertains and tickles people’s ears.
You have no cause to be angry at me. It’s weird that you say you’ve been helped at Celebrate Recovery “no thanks to [me].” Why would I have a hand in your recovery? Who are you, and what relationship do we have that this is the expectation? I suggest you take a deep breath and think twice before name-calling and speaking so angrily at someone, even if it is over the internet. You say that you were saved in CR, but you’re not demonstrating a very Christlike attitude towards me. You’re demanding silence from me with regard to a false teacher, but then you think it’s totally appropriate to call me names and make accusations because you don’t like what I said. I think that’s called hypocrisy…If you have questions regarding calling out false teachers, then I suggest you read this post: https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/.
God bless!
Juma Sanna
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. (Romans 14:1,22).
Judging a minister who has sacrificed so much to enrich peoples’ lives with the gospel of Christ is disturbing to me. Can you imagine a minister who refused to benefit financially from the sales of his Purpose Driven Life book, a minister who does reverse tithing, giving 90% of his income and keeping 10%? I have read all of his devotionals (365 of them as I translated them into another language) and they were sincere and enriching for me personally. This article demonizes Rick in a sarcastic and disturbing manner, I mean using words such as ‘bad, bad hermeneutics.” We really need to be careful in this area. I invite you to read the whole of Romans 14, I hope it will help you.
Julie
Thanks for the comment, but I’m not sure what your Bible reference has to do with my post. Romans 14 is about not having disunity over disputable matters. My issue with Saddleback Church has nothing to do with nonessential issues. Ordaining female pastors contradicts biblical teachings. The celebrity pastor culture at the church and pastor emphasis on the website distract from Jesus. The Purpose Driven Life misuses Bible texts, so Warren can make the points he wants to. It’s also not clear on the gospel. I could go on…
Your argument that you got something from what he has written is not a valid one when the discussion is whether or not his teachings are rooted in Scripture. Just because you like something doesn’t make it good, accurate, or biblical. You sound more like a Rick Warren super fan than a Christian concerned about sound biblical teaching.
As a side note: saying “bad, bad hermeneutics” is not sarcastic or disturbing. (Though, I admit to using sarcasm. Not everyone likes that form of humor. I understand.) All that means is Rick Warren does a poor job of interpreting the Word. You don’t have to agree, but Google it and you’ll find plenty of Bible scholars who would agree with me.
I suggest you read my post on calling out false teachers. https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/
God bless!
Frances
Julie
I’m really enjoying reading through this forum. I myself did actually enjoy The Purpose Driven life as a new Christian and have enjoyed many of Rick Warrens sermons (on line) but having read through your points, I’m re-thinking a lot and will be re-searching his teachings a bit more in depth. Every time someone, hits you with a negative or personal attack, you come right back because you’re argument is based purely on scripture and I am blown away and in some cases admittedly I’m a bit amused at how professionally and to the point you handle everything. You are not phased by negativity and your focus is on scripture which I love. I thank you for staying strong and focused on biblical teachings and I’m actually learning a lot here.
Julie
Thanks for having an open mind and not assuming I am coming at things with bad intentions. You’re a rare gem in that way. 😃
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Bing D.
The Bible portrays a special position for females in the church and society.
The notion that women should be “silent” in church, found in 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:3, refers specifically to instances of the church and marriage. Without looking at the context, these verses seem overbearing. Outside of church, God has used many women to spread the Word and lead others biblically.
Throughout the Bible, women have played a key role in fulfilling God’s plan. They have also held positions of leadership and responsibilities in spreading the Gospel.
Although Paul discouraged women having overt, authoritative involvement in the church, he acknowledges the female workers in the church and their efforts to further the message of Christ.
In Romans 16:1, Paul mentions Phoebe, a female deacon or servant in the church. In other books, he refers to woman that held churches in their houses, such as Nympha in Colossians 4:15 and Chloe in 1 Corinthians 1:11. John 4, Romans 16 and the Great Commission as validation for women to evangelize and spread the Gospel.
Deborah was the judge—a political leader—over Israel in Judges 4.
Women have a biblical role in society from helping within the church to fulfilling the Great Commission. The Bible encourages all Christians — both male and female — to follow the commands of God in telling others about Him. Women can use avenues such as serving in church and political appointments to accomplish this charge. Females from cover to cover in the Bible have been used by God, and they will continue to be used by Him in the future, as they are obedient in following his leading in their lives.
I think you should know the Bible more than just basing it in one scripture.
Julie
I think you have a pet issue that you see in everything… I’m not saying women can’t teach, share the gospel, or otherwise be used in great ways by God for His kingdom purposes. I’m saying women can’t be pastors/elders. You might not like 1 Timothy 2:12, but it exists. So does verse 13 that gives the reason. God created Adam first and then Eve. He had a created order for men and women from the beginning.
Titus 1:6 and 1 Timothy 3:2 tell us elders should have one *wife* (a male exclusive)and Titus 1:9 and 1 Timothy 3:2 tell us pastors should be apt to teach. Women, however, cannot teach men in a role of authority in the church as seen on 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
The Bible explicitly tells women what to teach in Titus 2:3-5. And women have been created as suitable helpers to men (Genesis 2:18), not the other way around.
All that said, women can teach anyone in many circumstances, and I agree the Bible gives multiple examples of God using women for great things. Men and women, according to Scripture, are equal in the sight of the Lord.
But women are excluded from the role of pastor. And any church that ordains women is in sin. Warren’s church identifies as Southern Baptist, and they are out of step with Southern Baptist beliefs in ordaining women. So, even if I didn’t think female ordination was a problem, Saddleback is still in the wrong.
Thanks for your concern about my ability to read the Bible and view it in context. I certainly hope that you take your own advice, as well. We should all avoid proof texting.
Meanwhile, I suggest watching the series on women that Mike Winger is doing on YouTube. It’s quite instructive. God bless.
Bing D.
You should have watched and listen to the Saddleback sermon this Sunday…. I feel bad for you that you judge that way. If only you can use your wisdom appropriately…. I will be praying for you.
Julie
Thanks for leaving your thoughts. I really do appreciate hearing from people. I also hope Pastor Warren gave a clear gospel presentation last Sunday…every Sunday really. I’m rooting for him.
You don’t have to feel bad for me, though. Instead you should feel bad for Warren. Check out this article about when he spoke to Muslims and encouraged them not to compromise their beliefs for the greater good of working together with Christians. There’s no greater good than salvation through Jesus Christ, but his focus is “deeds not creeds.” (https://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warren-to-muslims-talk-is-cheap-let-s-work-together.html) So, I don’t care how many times he gives an enjoyable sermon if he continues to deprioritize the gospel.
Also, although you might feel like I’m being judgmental, it’s necessary. You can read my post on this if you’re curious. https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/
GM Steffen
Julie I have read your post and am in 100 percent agreement with your assessment. Everything you wrote is factual, it is an assessment based on God’s Word, not the relativistic moods of society. You are a true Berean. I too felt things were ‘off’ with Warrens works and when I started to study the Word in relation to Warrens teachings I found his work to be eisegesical. 1 John 4:1 teaches that we are to be diligent in determining if the teaching is from God or not. There are many verses that teach caution, 1 John 4:1; 2 John 1: 7-11; Romans 16:17; and 1 Timothy 6: 3-5 to name a few. Stay strong and keep the faith in Jesus. God bless you.
Julie
Thank you so much for commenting! It’s also great to see you backing up your thoughts with Scripture. Ultimately, that’s what we need to do…view teachings through the sieve of God’s Word.
God bless you!
Robin
Hi Julie,
I’m pondering your post, not pounding it. Have you spoken to the SBC or Pastor Rick about your concerns? I sincerely hope you see this as a fair question. If so, what was the outcome? If not, why not?
Julie
That is a perfectly fair question. I really appreciate your thought on this issue. It’s actually a really good question.
No, I haven’t contacted Pastor Warren or the SBC. I haven’t contacted the SBC because I am no longer a Southern Baptist, so I would not be taken seriously as an outsider. Additionally, I know many Southern Baptists have spoken about their concerns with Saddleback and had zero response. In fact, their annual meeting is later this month, and there are plenty of “messengers” ready to discuss this. Unfortunately, the SBC runs like a microcosm of a government. A lot of questionable churches can stay because they give money to the SBC and/or they are so popular that standing against them is political suicide. It’s a real shame, and plenty of Southern Baptists are displeased by this sort of thing.
As for Pastor Warren, there are a couple reasons I haven’t spoken to him. 1.) He is a legitimate celebrity. I’d have just as much opportunity getting in contact with Sandra Bullock as I would with him. 2.) I’m assuming you are thinking about Matthew 18:15-17 about handling disputes. (If you’re not, then you can ignore me here.) Those verses are instructions for when a brother or sister in Christ has sinned against us personally. So, if someone in my church sinned against me, then I’d follow those steps rather than publicly rebuke her. Public teachers do not fall under the Matthew 18 category. They are to be held accountable, and Jesus’ example was public admonishment. A couple of examples include Luke 11:37-54 (the woes) and Luke 13:14-17 (calling out hypocrites). Pastor Warren is a very public figure with a huge influence, and he falls under the mark and avoid category (Romans 16:17-18).
It would be wonderful if leaders in the SBC and/or members of his church would pull him aside, but they either haven’t or it hasn’t worked.
Robin
Thank you for your reply.
Charles Coats
I ran across your site while continuing my own research of CR. I ran across an article quoting Rick or John concerning the meditation part of CR stating that he recommended clearing the mind and repeating the words “I am” to get the “mmm” going. Have you run across that? I would appreciate any input. Thanks
Julie
Hey Charles. Thanks for leaving a comment. I have spent some time looking up CR, meditation, and even that quote specifically since I read your question. I haven’t seen anything about the quote, and none of the official CR materials I’ve gone through have described meditation that way. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick or John said that, though, in a live talk somewhere. The crowd and energy of an event can feed all kinds of “off the cuff” comments that don’t work out well.
If you ever do find proof of that, though, I hope you’ll share it. I certainly hope it isn’t true. Yikes!
God bless!
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Debbie Hanna
How long have you been saved? What church do you attend? How does a person get saved? What drives you to write and answer those above?
Thank you. Debbie
Julie
Hi, Debbie. You can find detailed answers to those questions on the My Testimony and What Is The Set-Apart Walk pages. The short answers are as follows: I was saved on May 3, 2009. I was 26 years old, and I am the first born-again person in my family.
I don’t give my church’s name out because it feels like it crosses a personal line. I’m just not comfortable with it. However, I will say that my husband is the pastor of a small, rural Baptist church in Wisconsin.
To be saved a person must recognize she is a sinner who has broken God’s law and been separated from Him. She cannot enter His presence by her own works and will spend eternity in Hell (then, the lake of fire) when she dies. She must know that God sent His Son, Jesus, to fulfill the law – living a sinless life – and that Jesus willingly took the punishment for our sin on the cross as the final sacrifice needed. Unlike all other gods, though, Jesus is real and rose from the grave 3 days later. If we understand what Jesus did for us and why, then, in order to be saved, we need to repent of our sins and believe Jesus is who He says He is. (Again, there’s more on the My Testimony page.)
I write because I have seen and heard so much false teaching that women take in like candy over the years. We are easily deceived and surrounded by a godless culture. The American Church is an embarrassment as it strays away from the Lord. Women need a biblically-minded woman’s voice in the mix of progressive nonsense. I hope to add to the small chorus of conservative Christian women in the world. I love the Church, and I engage with people who write me (even when it’s mean-spirited) because I love them and want to treat them with respect and point them to truth.
Andrew MReed
Maybe it is an exception to the rule !
L.J.
WOW!!!! Just WOW!!! So what about Methodist Church, Gay woman Pastors? There is so many different Churches(Buildings ,with preaching going on).What about Catholic Nuns? and Catholicism, Priests, and Celibacy. Holy Communion!!!! Catholics believe in Transubstantiation, Do You have Communion? What about the Rosary? How about the The Pope. what about Jews for Jesus pastors .Unitarian Transgender Churches. What about being a Saint, and Living as a Hermit? What version of the Bible is the most original?
Who’s right ,and Who is wrong! Who are we to Judge?
Julie
“Wow” is a good word for your comment. Rapid-fire unrelated questions don’t typically lead to a fruitful conversation. That’s my experience, at least. Looking at your list, though, I’d say most of what you listed is unbiblical.
You must be new here. Hi, I’m Julie. If you’re curious about who I am, you should read my testimony. Simply put, I’m a Bible-believing Christian woman. So, that means that I don’t add or take from God’s Word, and I see the Bible as the absolute Word of God which is our Authority. I’ve written posts concerning you questions. Follow any of the links below to read biblical responses to you queries.
Calling out false teachers: https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/
Progressive Christianity: https://thesetapartwalk.com/progressive-christianity-not-all-progress-is-good/
Christian unity: https://thesetapartwalk.com/christian-unity-is-not-what-you-think-it-is/
Catholicism: https://thesetapartwalk.com/catholicism-is-not-biblical-christianity/
LGBTQ Ally Churches: https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-churches-are-becoming-lgbtq-allies/
Bad Ladies Bible Study Teachers: https://thesetapartwalk.com/how-to-identify-a-bad-ladies-bible-teacher/
Rick Warren and celebrity pastors: https://thesetapartwalk.com/rick-warren-and-the-problem-with-celebrity-pastors/
Thanks for your comment!
Jill Gantz
Thank you so much Julie for your piece on Rick Warren. I am in complete agreement with you on all fronts. I also must mention that your ability to maintain your poise when being attacked was nothing short of impressive and showed true Christian character. You never wavered in your spirit of love but you told the truth and backed it up with the Word of God. Thank you so much for doing what you do. God bless!
Julie
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I suppose I stepped on some toes here, but sometimes we need our toes stepped on, right? 🙂
Keet
Ain’t no perfect Church.
Bless y’all
Julie
That’s so true. But then there are churches that pass being imperfect and move on to teaching false doctrine or sharing the gospel without sin in the mix… They are much more than just “not perfect.” But I sincerely think that your reminder is helpful. None of us should be looking for the perfect church. We won’t find anything perfect on this side of glory. Thanks for your comment.
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Douglas Reum
Very insightful – thank you for your faithful service.
Julie
Thank you!
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