Responding To Your Feedback: Part 9 (Biblical Roles For Men And Women)

Every so often I receive comments on my blog posts and emails from readers who want to share their input on what I have written. Although many are supportive and friendly, plenty of others are critical, mean-spirited, inaccurate, or some combination of those attributes. On occasion, I do not respond to emails or approve comments because I don’t see how the exchange could be edifying. All that said, I would like to acknowledge some of these comments and emails when it seems appropriate. “Responding to your feedback” posts will be written directly to the author, but I will keep the individual anonymous by assigning him/her a nickname.

The Comment For The Day

Today’s comment is from my blog post entitled “Finding A Healthy Church: A Response To Sheila Wray Gregoire And Beth Allison Barr.” That post is mostly about Gregoire’s and Barr’s egalitarian take on Christianity and what they think makes a church “healthy.” Suffice it to say, I’m not a fan of these ladies. The comment pushes back against my complementarian view but still manages to be surprising. The woman who left the comment was mostly friendly and seemed to have good intentions.

I’m shocked. Those who disagree with me are rarely friendly or respectful when they leave a comment. This is a lengthy comment, so I’ll be responding to the parts that stick out most to me rather than every single thought she shared.

I’ll be referring to this writer as Friend.

*I am presenting the comment with no editing aside from some punctuation.*

“Thank you for this article! Not sure if anyone still checks this, but I found it, so perhaps?

You mentioned you thought that Sheila’s definitions were vague, but I find the one you gave quite vague too.

‘Men and women are equally valued in God’s sight and in His plan. Complementarianism seeks to preserve the biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles while valuing the quality and importance of both genders. The result of true complementarianism is honor to Christ and harmony in the church and in the home.’ (From Got Questions that you quoted)

But what ARE the ‘Biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles?’

It seems to be, when push comes to shove, that a husband sacrificially leads his wife, and a wife joyfully follows her husband.

But unless we strip the English words “lead” and “follow” of all meaning (as proponents of gender fluidity do with “male” and “female”), this means that one person in the relationship is more prominent/primary than the other. Also, in ANY OTHER scenario of leader and follower, however minimal it might be, there is inherent inequality at play. We follow God, because he is divine and we are the created. A student follows a teacher because they have more knowledge and experience. A foot soldier follows a captain or a general because they are more capable and well-trained. An employee follows their manager because the manager is paid more and carries greater responsibilty / authority for the company. A disciple follows a spiritual mentor because that mentor is wiser and more mature in their faith. A child follows a parent because they are a not-yet-fully-formed little human and need guidance! Once children grow up that dynamic changes and those children can one day become parents, too.

You mentioned mutual submission between a husband and wife, but how does ‘mutual submission’ work in any other leader/follower example? Between a manager and an employee, a general and a corporal, a child and a parent? There can be no mutual submission in these power relations if they are actually going to work properly.

The way complementarians use words like ‘equality’ and ‘importance’ and ‘mutual submission’ doesn’t make sense–unless we make the words mean whatever we want them to.

True authority ALWAYS implies inherent superiority, importance or primacy of one kind or another. Either it’s nature, experience, knowledge, skill or raw ability.

So when that definition of complementarianism above says that it ‘seeks to preserve the Biblical differences in men’s and women’s roles’ what that really means is that it ‘seeks to preserve our specific interpretation of the inherent primacy and importance of men (over women) in the church and in the home.’

If that isn’t true, then why do husbands always lead and wives always follow? Why is the husband always the ‘head,’ or as complementarians understand that word, the ‘authority’ or even ‘servant-leader’? What are the husband’s superior qualifications other than simply being male?

And no, it is not simply a ‘mystery of God’s design’ how all of this works out. That is an evasion. It is impossible (again, if words mean anything) for a true leader and true follower to be equal in quality and value while that power relation lasts. A captain is by definition more trained than a foot soldier; a teacher is always more knowledgeable than a student; a parent is unquestionably more experienced than their child.

So then, is a man more human, or is he a more primary human, than a woman?

Complementarianism, for all of its word games and candy-coated phrases, ultimately answers: ‘Yes.’

This, I would argue, is where complementarianism ultimately lands us: a woman is not as valuable or as human before God as a man.

If she was, the power relation between her and her husband could one day theoretically be reversed, but it never is. According to complementarians, it never should.

A wonderful Christian author once remarked: ‘Man finds it hard to get what he wants, because he does not want the best; God finds it hard to give, because He would give the best, and man will not take it.’

God wants to give the fullness of the gospel to both women and men, but will we open our eyes and see?

It grieves me deeply that people think (or are being taught to believe, or are teaching others) that complementarianism is anything other than what it is–assigning an unchanging power relation to a human person because of the gender they were born with. In the exact same way people born in Africa were enslaved and treated as lesser human beings by the West because of the color of their skin.

If you don’t like Sheila’s take on it (I think she is feeling desperate these days, and many of her ‘scary’ folllowers are deeply traumatized women), then maybe you would be interested in Terran Williams’ work?

His article ‘Subordinating Jesus and Women’ is a great place to start!”

Responding To Your Feedback

Dear Friend,

Let me begin by telling you that I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and opinions both clearly and with kindness. Your comment is an example to anyone looking to disagree with a blog post but not instantly create a hostile interaction. With absolutely zero irony, I must say, “well done.”

Before we begin, allow me to assure you that I have taken a great deal of time to consider what you’ve written and prayed about it. I’ll try to address your thoughts concisely and with respect.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 1

“Thank you for this article! Not sure if anyone still checks this, but I found it, so perhaps?”

All right. This is technically not a point you made, but I wanted to apologize for the time it has taken for me to address this. I do a poor job of responding to my comments in a timely manner, and in your case, I’ve been holding on to this for when I was ready to respond in this particular format.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 2

“You mentioned you thought that Sheila’s definitions were vague, but I find the one you gave quite vague too.

‘Men and women are equally valued in God’s sight and in His plan. Complementarianism seeks to preserve the biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles while valuing the quality and importance of both genders. The result of true complementarianism is honor to Christ and harmony in the church and in the home.’ (From Got Questions that you quoted)

But what ARE the “Biblical differences between men’s and women’s roles”?

It seems to be, when push comes to shove, that a husband sacrificially leads his wife, and a wife joyfully follows her husband.”

I didn’t intend to be vague. I actually assumed that the Bible so clearly differentiates men and women that anyone would know what I was referencing. That serves as a good reminder to everyone that we don’t all see things the same way and may need more context.

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to pushing and shoving…but yes, one component of marriage is a husband’s sacrificial leadership and a woman’s willing submission. It would delight me if this is where your comment ended. We could shake hands and part as two friends whole-heartedly in agreement. Alas, you continue with a rather bleak outlook on what I will, for lack of a better term, call traditional biblical roles for men and women.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 3

“But unless we strip the English words ‘lead’ and ‘follow’ of all meaning (as proponents of gender fluidity do with ‘male’ and ‘female’), this means that one person in the relationship is more prominent/primary than the other. Also, in ANY OTHER scenario of leader and follower, however minimal it might be, there is inherent inequality at play. We follow God, because he is divine and we are the created. A student follows a teacher because they have more knowledge and experience. A foot soldier follows a captain or a general because they are more capable and well-trained. An employee follows their manager because the manager is paid more and carries greater responsibilty / authority for the company. A disciple follows a spiritual mentor because that mentor is wiser and more mature in their faith. A child follows a parent because they are a not-yet-fully-formed little human and need guidance! Once children grow up that dynamic changes and those children can one day become parents, too.”

I take issue with your assumption that whoever is the leader of the home is the primary member of the family or more prominent. This is a common trapping of feminism. Women assume that husbands who lead are dimming their wives’ light or making her secondary. It’s a very worldly and self-focused way to think about it. Jesus submitted to God the Father by being our substitutionary atonement on the cross. Would you honestly claim Jesus is just the follower in that relationship, and the Father has the primary role? Of course not! They are equal to each other.

The Bible Says

“But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”

John 5:17-18

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”

Philippians 2:5-7

“I and my Father are one.”

John 10:30

The Marriage Dynamic

Looking at male and female roles through a biblical lens, prominence has no place in a marriage. A couple works together to serve God and live out their faith. Some marriages may have a “primary” husband, if you know what I mean. Meanwhile, other marriages have a husband who leads but is quieter in his leadership while his wife gives off that main character energy. (See also: my marriage)

All the examples you gave of people following others are absolutely accurate. There are built-in dynamics in the military, mentorship, school, parenting, etc. that necessitate a leader and a “follower.” Do you think it’s possible God’s Word teaches us a marriage dynamic that may resemble some of your examples?

The Bible Says

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”

1 Corinthians 11:3

“Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.”

1 Peter 3:1-2 (ESV)

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.”

Colossians 3:18

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

Ephesians 5:22-23

It looks like there is one called to submit and another called to lead. Teamwork, ya know? Have you ever tried to have two leaders control something? It’s a catastrophe and creates an acrimonious relationship between the leaders. If only there was a dynamic in which one could take a step back and cooperate by submitting when it makes sense. Oh, wait!

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 4

“You mentioned mutual submission between a husband and wife, but how does ‘mutual submission’ work in any other leader/follower example? Between a manager and an employee, a general and a corporal, a child and a parent? There can be no mutual submission in these power relations if they are actually going to work properly.”

Bingo, Friend! Mutual submission doesn’t work in relationships that are built around power dynamics. Also, it wouldn’t be appropriate in these examples. On the other hand, mutual submission in a marriage, which is a physically, emotionally, and spiritually intimate relationship, makes sense.

The idea of mutual submission has been (and still is) hotly debated, especially between egalitarians and complementarians. Egalitarians use Ephesians 5:21 (“Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”) to “prove” that women don’t need to submit to their husbands because everyone submits. I don’t want to take a deep dive on this issue, but there is an obvious flaw in this argument because it contradicts other areas of Scripture which specify female submission.

Some complementarians say this submission has more to do with submitting to one another’s roles. How I’ve come to understand it, however, is that mutual submission is prioritizing the other person. So, my husband doesn’t submit to me by handing over the leadership of our home. Instead, he submits to me by thinking of me first. I, in turn, ought to do the same.

Don’t Expect Perfection

Sadly, there have been plenty of men who have lacked this biblical mutual submission and abused their roles as the head of their homes. It breaks my heart, but it doesn’t negate God’s beautiful design. We don’t scrap the whole thing because some men have handled submission in an abysmal fashion. God’s ways are perfect while mankind is flawed and sinful.

You see, a biblical marriage isn’t two people in a power struggle. Rather, it’s two people seeking to serve one another, do what’s best for the marriage, and above all else, honor and obey the Lord. Your secular view of marriage can’t reconcile itself with this.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 5

“The way complementarians use words like ‘equality’ and ‘importance’ and ‘mutual submission’ doesn’t make sense–unless we make the words mean whatever we want them to.”

Well, we kind of do just that, don’t we? The Bible sometimes uses words that have very specific meanings but mean something entirely different outside of the biblical context. One such example is the word love. How many ways might someone define love? Romantic love, friendship-related love, a love for pizza, familial love… They all mean something a little different. However, the biblical definition of love will undeniably involve Jesus Christ. Christians are called to love like Christ which is a supernatural and sacrificial love that we’re incapable of without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That kind of love is not found in secular circles. And this is just one example.

I already explained the biblical meaning of mutual submission in the Bible. And, you betcha, it has a different meaning than the world would assign it. Moreover, you’re correct about equality. It means something different in the Bible, too.

Equality

The world knows equality to be sameness across many areas of life such as employment, income, opportunities, rights, etc. Somewhere along the line this made differences very bad things. Suddenly, it isn’t fair if someone is born into a family with less advantages than other families. Sure, the opportunities and rights are the same, but the modern culture demands those individuals be equal.

The Bible, on the other hand, doesn’t focus on the here and now regarding equality. True equality in our fallen world will never happen, but biblical equality means we are all made in God’s image (Genesis 1:27) and stand equal at the cross. Christ died for the whole world (John 3:16), therefore, you can be saved no matter who you are.

We’ve all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), so we are all the same at the foot of the cross. Rich or poor. Young or old. Man or woman. We all need a Savior, and He can save anyone.

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

Romans 10: 9-10

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 6

“True authority ALWAYS implies inherent superiority, importance or primacy of one kind or another. Either it’s nature, experience, knowledge, skill or raw ability.

So when that definition of complementarianism above says that it ‘seeks to preserve the Biblical differences in men’s and women’s roles’ what that really means is that it ‘seeks to preserve our specific interpretation of the inherent primacy and importance of men (over women) in the church and in the home.’”

Let’s look at the word authority. The dictionary definition is “the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.” I understand your response to the idea of male leadership if you’re using the world’s understanding of authority. Continuing to look at marriage, men cannot “enforce” submission. As I said earlier, submission is a willing act. It’s no longer submission if my husband forces me.

Despite how the world defines it, a man’s biblical authority in the home is not a pass to force his wife to do anything. She must be willing. Enforcement would, in fact, contradict what he’s called to do as a husband. He is to be gentle with his wife, loving, caring, and sacrificial. Saying, “Woman, do what I tell you to,” seems to work against the relationship a husband ought to foster with his beloved.

The Bible Says

“Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.”

Colossians 3:19 (ESV)

“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”

1 Peter 3:7

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:”

Galatians 5:25-29

I don’t know how you see it, Friend, but this doesn’t read like instructions on how to force women to do things against their will and mindlessly follow their husbands. Rather, it sounds like commands for men to love and cherish their wives.

Not To Nitpick But…

I’d like to also quickly point out that you brought up interpretations of the Bible. I generally find that egalitarians and progressive Christians get upset when someone stands by the validity of his or her interpretation of the Bible. Yet, the progressive Christian does the same exact thing. Listen, I understand that we are interpreting things differently, but can you at least admit that we can’t both be correct? One interpretation is the one that God intended, and the other takes verses out of the context of the whole Word of God and really gained steam with feminism…

I’m trying to be charitable with you because I think you wrote me with good intentions, but you come across as overly concerned with who (men vs. women) gets to have the “better,” “bigger,” and more public roles. You better do a fact check on yourself because none of that matters to God. He defined the roles, and as believers, it’s our responsibility to obey Him. Yes, we obey even when His command isn’t popular with the culture or with us.

A Bad Attitude

One more thing, this attitude you’ve displayed assumes the worst about husbands. I know there are awful men who have abused the Word for their gain. (All the more reason for women to know and understand the Bible.) But that’s not the rule among men in Christian marriages. Maybe you’re not hearing about all the men who don’t become power-hungry villains because those families are busy just living life and serving God.

Finally, this attitude tells me that you don’t value the work God has given wives to do. I’ve written about the confusion around whether or not to stay home, how there’s no such thing as “just” a housewife, and how to worship God in the monotony of life. I recommend you look into the joys, blessings, and Kingdom work of biblical femininity. You don’t need to make sourdough to honor God’s roles for men and women. You don’t even need to stay home. However, you certainly need to stop coveting the role men play. Be thankful for the life God has given you instead of trying to claw your way into a life you’ve designed outside of His will.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 7

“If that isn’t true, then why do husbands always lead and wives always follow? Why is the husband always the ‘head,’ or as complementarians understand that word, the ‘authority’ or even ‘servant-leader’? What are the husband’s superior qualifications other than simply being male?

And no, it is not simply a ‘mystery of God’s design’ how all of this works out. That is an evasion. It is impossible (again, if words mean anything) for a true leader and true follower to be equal in quality and value while that power relation lasts. A captain is by definition more trained than a foot soldier; a teacher is always more knowledgeable than a student; a parent is unquestionably more experienced than their child.

So then, is a man more human, or is he a more primary human, than a woman?”

This section of your comment contains a lot of reiteration of some of the previous points you made. I’d like to clarify a few things here, though.

1. Men don’t always lead.

Technically, they are meant to, but they aren’t always leading in the way you are insinuating. A good leader delegates, right? Many complementarian husbands don’t give input on a great number of things because they just trust their wives. For instance, my husband doesn’t tell me how to spend money and handle the bills. I’m strong in that area of our home life, and he trusts me to make the day-to-day decisions. You might be surprised to know that my husband rarely unilaterally decides things for our family. He views me as his equal, and he appreciates my insight and opinions. I’m his primary counsel and helper. He’s not just dragging me around by his every whim, Friend. His leadership is rooted in His love for the Lord, obedience, and care for our children and me. That kind of leadership can’t be authoritarian.

2. Men aren’t necessarily “qualified” to be leaders.

The cigar smoking, bourbon drinking, Doug Wilson enthusiasts will disagree with me, but men aren’t given this responsibility because they are all awesome at it. Simply stated, God said they are leaders. Who are we to question His design? Roles for men and women were decided by God long before either of us existed. Men, generally speaking, have leadership qualities, but many don’t have the opportunity to put them into practice because women stomp on through with faux masculine energy as they declare they’re boss babes. If we just stepped back, shut our mouths, and let men be men, I think you’d see the wisdom in God’s plan.

3. None of this is a mystery.

I’m sorry if someone has said that to you in the past. Here’s the thing… Just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t make it a mystery. I’ve shared a lot of Scripture with you that paints the picture of God’s design. It may not make sense to you, but He lays it out fairly plainly in black and white.

4. God doesn’t need someone more knowledgeable or trained to be a leader.

He often uses the people we would least expect to do His good work and glorify Him.

“But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.”

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 (ESV)

What an amazing thing He does when He uses someone who could have never accomplished the task at hand if it weren’t for Him. What a testimony! I’m not saying all men are inherently weak and foolish, but I am saying that God didn’t choose men because they are better than women in some way. Again, you’ve allowed the world’s us-against-them mentality to taint your understanding of God’s intended purpose in His biblical roles for men and women. Friend, get out of the egalitarian echo chamber and ask God what He intends.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 8

“This, I would argue, is where complementarianism ultimately lands us: a woman is not as valuable or as human before God as a man.

If she was, the power relation between her and her husband could one day theoretically be reversed, but it never is. According to complementarians, it never should.

A wonderful Christian author once remarked: ‘Man finds it hard to get what he wants, because he does not want the best; God finds it hard to give, because He would give the best, and man will not take it.’

God wants to give the fullness of the gospel to both women and men, but will we open our eyes and see?”

I’ve already addressed that male and female roles have nothing to do with value or ranking before Christ. We are all precious lives made in His image. We may have different role/jobs, but that has literally no bearing on our value. I wonder if your feminism is telling on you. Is it possible that you are bitter about womanhood and desire what you think would be more? Do you long to live a masculine life? Where does this dissatisfaction come from? Nothing is being withheld from you, Friend, least of all the gospel!

The Gospel

I have a sincere question. Do you know the gospel? It has nothing to do with position or Church leadership. We’re all lawbreakers and have fallen short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23). This sin separates us from God, and we have no hope of doing enough good works to right our wrongs (Ephesians 2:8-9). Our sins could not be forgiven, though, without shed blood (Hebrews 9:22). We needed a perfect sacrifice, and the sinless Jesus Christ was that spotless lamb we needed. His sacrifice on the cross was the last sacrifice anyone would ever need (Hebrews 10:11-18). Christ was buried and rose again the third day, defeating death. Thanks to His willing death, burial, and resurrection, anyone who believes and calls on His name can be saved. Amen, Friend! In a nutshell, that’s the gospel. So, what does that have to do with leadership?

I have one last thought. The quote you shared with me isn’t the win for your interpretation of the roles for men and women like you seem to think. Friend, perhaps you don’t get what you want because you don’t want what’s best. Obedience and a willingness to follow the ultimate Authority (i.e., God) is what is best, but you are seeking a position that doesn’t belong to you. God has offered you the best, but you refuse it.

Biblical Roles For Men And Women: Point 9

“It grieves me deeply that people think (or are being taught to believe, or are teaching others) that complementarianism is anything other than what it is–assigning an unchanging power relation to a human person because of the gender they were born with. In the exact same way people born in Africa were enslaved and treated as lesser human beings by the West because of the color of their skin.

If you don’t like Sheila’s take on it (I think she is feeling desperate these days, and many of her “scary” folllowers are deeply traumatized women), then maybe you would be interested in Terran Williams’ work?

His article ‘Subordinating Jesus and Women’ is a great place to start!”

This is where I think your emotions clouded your reason. I encourage you to take a moment to consider what you said. I’ll wait.

You’re saying that men and women serving God through their lives in different roles is the “exact same” as Africans being sold and/or kidnapped, chained in a ship like chattel, left to suffer for weeks on end in filthy conditions, subjected to life-threatening illnesses, females enduring violent sexual assaults, and ultimately the survivors being sold to work as slaves while being treated as animals or subhumans. Friend, does that slave narrative really sound the same to you as a woman being told she can’t be a pastor or that she must submit to her husband when the situation arises? Certainly not.

Reality Is Inescapable

Real quick, let me also remind you that there are unchanging realities to your life based on your sex that have nothing to do with the Church. The fact of the matter is, we’re all dealt our metaphorical cards at birth. Equality, if you mean sameness, is not reality, biblical, or even interesting.

I read the article you suggested several times. I’m sorry to say that it read like a regurgitation of the same talking points egalitarians use on a regular basis. It was rank with poor exegesis, contained very little biblical support, and was reliant on modern interpretations of long settled topics. Maybe comb through it again with a more discerning eye.

Final Thought

Friend, you clearly care about people. You want fairness, equality, and opportunities for everyone. However, your fixation on these things blinds you to their potential failures and to the better way. God’s way. In the end, we all need to fight the desire to have what is not ours and to serve God the best we can in the roles He’s given to us. I pray you can make peace with that because there is no peace in a life defined by rebellion which is exactly where your heart is now.

Okay, readers! What do you have to say in response to Friend or to me?

Image courtesy of Possessed Photography via Unsplash.